Could be interesting... Dispatches C4 tomoorrow - Albion to be heavily featured

[thisistips]

To the 'it's only banter' merchants. Banter between fans is funny when it's original. It's dreadful when it's the same old tired and copied insults. The first time I heard 'we pay your benefits' I thought it was funny. At millwall last sat I thought it was pathetic. It's the same with the boring homophobic abuse that isn't funny anymore. Same with 'burned down your town'. Funny first time, now let it lie.

And honestly, clapping the away support is a good thing. We're miles from most clubs and they are fans like us that have spent their money and time to follow their team. It's all in the same spirit. Have some banter, then a pint after and talk about the game.

 

[brighton bluenose]

I know of gay men who don't want to attend Albion games because of the intimidatory atmosphere created by homophobic abuse from away fans. It's particularly troublesome if you have been a victim of a violent homophobic attack in the past.

Whilst I can understand the sensitivity if someone has suffered an attack in the past I find it VERY difficult to believe that anyone would be intimidated to the extent you describe at the Amex where - with a couple of obvious exceptions - the homophobic 'abuse" is mild and generally limited to the 'does your boyfriend know your here' variety from a small minority in a crowd of 27,000!

 

[Captain Sensible]

1-0 to the nancy boys!

 

[Seagull on the wing]

1-0 to the nancy boys!

One of the best retorts ever...plus to the ' Does your boyfriend....,point to them and sing 'He's over there,he's over there'
But seriously,that have to be careful what they report...can't remember what match it was but some reporter wrote that Brighton fans were singing 'Seig Heil'....instead of Seagulls...

 

[Uncle Spielberg]

Whilst I can understand the sensitivity if someone has suffered an attack in the past I find it VERY difficult to believe that anyone would be intimidated to the extent you describe at the Amex where - with a couple of obvious exceptions - the homophobic 'abuse" is mild and generally limited to the 'does your boyfriend know your here' variety from a small minority in a crowd of 27,000!

I would say a minority of the abuse is mild, the vast majority is vile such as " die of aids, scum " and " does your dad bum you " to a father and son attending the game. Still it's only banter, eh ? Most of the abuse is outside the ground now as the knuckleheads have come to terms with they are at risk of being ejected if they say this in the ground but the abuse is just as intense and vile outside the grounds.

 

[Captain Sensible]

One of the best retorts ever...plus to the ' Does your boyfriend....,point to them and sing 'He's over there,he's over there'
But seriously,that have to be careful what they report...can't remember what match it was but some reporter wrote that Brighton fans were singing 'Seig Heil'....instead of Seagulls...

Yes, "we've just f#cked you up the arse!" Was a great one against palace last year. This is the thing, when it's personal outside the ground or constant gestures and obscene abuse from away fans inside it, that's when it's not funny anymore.

 

[wellquickwoody]

I know of gay men who don't want to attend Albion games because of the intimidatory atmosphere created by homophobic abuse from away fans.

I know of people, gay and straight, who don't go to the football because it is football, should we think about changing our game?

 

[thisistips]

1-0 to the nancy boys!

now that, is funny, and satisfying

 

[Thunder Bolt]

One of the best retorts ever...plus to the ' Does your boyfriend....,point to them and sing 'He's over there,he's over there'
But seriously,that have to be careful what they report...can't remember what match it was but some reporter wrote that Brighton fans were singing 'Seig Heil'....instead of Seagulls...

It was away at Millwall. The reporter also said that Brighton fans were accompanying it with 'Nazi salutes' which was the pointing when Seagulls is chanted.

 

[keaton]

Is it really? Don't see many gay blokes and their boyfriends leaving in floods of tears just straight blokes getting all upset acting like a bunch of queens

What does a gay bloke look like?

 

[Billy the Fish]

I know of gay men who don't want to attend Albion games because of the intimidatory atmosphere created by homophobic abuse from away fans. It's particularly troublesome if you have been a victim of a violent homophobic attack in the past.

I wonder what the gay men who do attend matches think of that That is a pretty lame excuse, how would anyone even know they were gay or why would they think they were being singled out by the chants from 100 metres away?

This debate should stay focussed on changing the views of everyone in society, with football just a small part of that. You also have to take group mentality into account with a football crowd, do we really think thateveryone who's ever sang "does your boyfriend know you're here" is a rabid homophobe or are they just joining in?

When the homophobic debate turns into individuals bleating because someone said something they don't like it almost ruins the real debate. Most of the time it just sounds a bit pathetic.

 

[keaton]

I wonder what the gay men who do attend matches think of that That is a pretty lame excuse, how would anyone even know they were gay or why would they think they were being singled out by the chants from 100 metres away?

This debate should stay focussed on changing the views of everyone in society, with football just a small part of that. You also have to take group mentality into account with a football crowd, do we really think thateveryone who's ever sang "does your boyfriend know you're here" is a rabid homophobe or are they just joining in?

When the homophobic debate turns into individuals bleating because someone said something they don't like it almost ruins the real debate. Most of the time it just sounds a bit pathetic.

Aren't you currently an individual bleating about what you don't like?

The difference being that other people are complaining about other's breaking the law

 

[Billy the Fish]

Aren't you currently an individual bleating about what you don't like?

The difference being that other people are complaining about other's breaking the law

No I'm commenting on a situation as I see it, I'm not claiming to be offended by it.

There's a very grey area with some of the chanting at football but most tend to ignore it and just wade in at one extreme or the other. The abuse outside the ground needs to be stamped down on, but it's few and far between and I think the police generally are. Most of the chants in the ground are playground stuff and should be treated as such, there's an argument to say it's not even homophobic.

It will be interesting to see if this programme does focus on the really nasty stuff where people have been abused outside the ground or is they just waste their time on "we can see you holding hands:

 

[The Large One]

I spoke to Darren Balkham about this programme when I saw him at Millwall on Saturday.

Apparently, it's more about the supposed lack of application of the law by the various police forces and stewards to homophobic chanting, and among others, they're highlighting a given incident at a recent game at the Amex.

Channel 4 are not allowing him to see the programme before it is broadcast (in order that he can comment or be given the right of reply). I guess we'll have to see what footage and consideration the programme contains, but Dispatches, while once excellent, tends to put more of a tabloid spin on 'investigative journalism' these days.

 

[Dan Aitch]

Apologies for what is, by my standards, a pretty long post. I'll also send a partial apology for playing devil's advocate and seeing whether my comments result in people thinking that I might have a point, or whether they just call me a c-nut and move on. I don't really care either way but one thing I do care about is the level of intolerance and prejudice that is sometimes shown on this board, but that's my problem to deal with and if I don't like it I can **** off (it'll save anyone else having to say it).

Do you feel the same about people being called fat, or lazy, or the aforementioned benefit claimants or pikeys or bald or grey haired or big nosed or pigeon toed or young or old or: take your pick? If not, then why the difference?
Is it only the things your Government tell you it's right to be offended about that genuinely make you feel this way?

I take it you always ignore what the Government tells you is right, shall I? I make my own decisions based on my personal ethics. In many areas those ethics are consistent with the Government's (or as some foolishly refer to them - the law). Do you question people and their values if they decide to drive on the left, or pay for their pint in the pub?

Also, if it's worth the effort of referring you back to the Equality Act, the only offence within your list of insults (if we exclude threatening behaviour, etc.) is discrimination on the grounds of age because that too is a protected characteristic. Have a read of it and see if it helps you see the difference.

1-0 to the nancy boys!

Would it be ok, if players or fans had 'monkey chants' aimed at them, for everyone to sing "1-0 to the monkey boys", or might that be in slightly questionable taste? I think it'd be questionable and my personal view is that the phrase 'nancy boys' might (only 'might' and only my opinion) be seen as playing up to a very generic stereotype and not really embracing the concepts of diversity, equality or inclusion. It just perpetuates the use of such language, whether people think it's a laugh, or choose not to join in and, as ever, it'll be a brave man who tries to shout the north stand down next time it happens.

Bottom line, do whatever you like and worry not about whether anyone is offended, upset, threatened or discouraged from going to see a game. They're all just a bunch of queens and no one wants to see them crying or flouncing off, right? After all, that's what gay men do. I doubt any of them are built like brick 5h1thouses who will want to bounce your head off a wall, right? And even if the Police take their responsibilities to eliminate homophobia seriously, it's just a laugh and you won't be arrested or prosecuted for it.

A man is still a man, whoever he fancies. The same as a prejudiced homophobe is still a prejudiced homophobe, whether he admits it or not. It's a pity we aren't all a bit more aware of these things.

Like I said, playing a bit of devil's advocate here so please don't shoot the messenger, whether I actually believe all of this or not.

 

[Beach Seagull]

I know of gay men who don't want to attend Albion games because of the intimidatory atmosphere created by homophobic abuse from away fans. It's particularly troublesome if you have been a victim of a violent homophobic attack in the past.

You are having a laugh surely? You could not ask for a more gentler atmosphere than the Amex!! How an earth can the odd chant of 'we can see you holding hands' constitute an 'intimidatory atmosphere?'

 

[Beach Seagull]

I spoke to Darren Balkham about this programme when I saw him at Millwall on Saturday.

Apparently, it's more about the supposed lack of application of the law by the various police forces and stewards to homophobic chanting, and among others, they're highlighting a given incident at a recent game at the Amex.

Channel 4 are not allowing him to see the programme before it is broadcast (in order that he can comment or be given the right of reply). I guess we'll have to see what footage and consideration the programme contains, but Dispatches, while once excellent, tends to put more of a tabloid spin on 'investigative journalism' these days.

I can imagine the intro will be allowing the following lines:

'Football the game loved by millions, played by multi million pound superstars in modern purpose built stadiums, enjoyed in an atmosphere a world apart from the 70s and 80's when it was plagued by violent gangs fighting each other, however tonight Dispatches will reveal the true side of football, the homophobic and rascist abuse that is now brushed under the carpet by the media'

It will then no doubt show how our 'secret cameras' recorded shocking examples of abuse at football matches.

No doubt after said programme MP's and the great and the good will ask for 'urgent measures' to tackle footballs problems which will probably lead to yet more over the top Policing towards it. Next singing 'we can see you holding hands' to Albion fans will lead to custodial sentences.

 

[Creaky]

Whilst I can understand the sensitivity if someone has suffered an attack in the past I find it VERY difficult to believe that anyone would be intimidated to the extent you describe at the Amex where - with a couple of obvious exceptions - the homophobic 'abuse" is mild and generally limited to the 'does your boyfriend know your here' variety from a small minority in a crowd of 27,000!

Easy to say there is little or no intimidation at the Amex but just think for a second - the chant, 'we can see you holding hands' has been quoted as a harmless bit of banter BUT have you seen men holding hands when leaving the stadium or standing in the queues for the buses and trains? Plenty of male/female couples doing so but I have never seen two men behaving in this perfectly natural way.

The only explanation I can think of for why not is that the gay couples who must be amongst the 20k + crowds feel intimidated. Not directly by the chant quoted above but intimidated by the perceived institutionalised homophobia amongst football crowds.

It's the same with racism, the public expression of which has almost entirely been wiped out but will still take many years before the perception of racism disappears and the ethnic minorities start attending in the numbers representative of the general population makeup.

 

[Beach Hut]

I know of gay men who don't want to attend Albion games because of the intimidatory atmosphere created by homophobic abuse from away fans. It's particularly troublesome if you have been a victim of a violent homophobic attack in the past.

You must stop talking about Ernest like this

 

[Horsham Gull]

Wigan away