[News] Corbyn to become CND vice-president

[beorhthelm]

Clearly you are unfamiliar with the issues. Junior Doctors tend to be quite bright individuals who are quite comfortable with reading a contract.

where have i said they havent read the contract? im just going by the BBC information, which is likely as neutral as one can get. my objection is to those portraying this as some form of attack on the NHS, when the background is to addrss the poorer clinical outcomes for those admited at weekends.

 

[BLOCK F]

Clearly you are unfamiliar with the issues. Junior Doctors tend to be quite bright individuals who are quite comfortable with reading a contract.

Personally I'm not a fan of shroud waving as a protest point but, seriously, what else can nurses and Doctors do when they are the backbone of the NHS?

Yes, junior doctors do tend to be quite bright individuals and are eventually well rewarded for their skills.
However, I would question, whether some of those same individuals are suited to their careers. If you want to have a 'normal hours' job and get paid extra for working anti-social hours, then don't enter the medical profession.

 

[deletebeepbeepbeep]

Yes, junior doctors do tend to be quite bright individuals and are eventually well rewarded for their skills.
However, I would question, whether some of those same individuals are suited to their careers. If you want to have a 'normal hours' job and get paid extra for working anti-social hours, then don't enter the medical profession.

His claim is that they want to make the NHS 24/7, it already is 24/7. He is making doctors out to be cut throats when they are some of the most intelligent, caring and giving people in this country who want to be properly recompensed for not being able to see their families during the week or on Saturday. Doctors sacrifice their personal lives to work in intolerable conditions to save others, forcing them to work longer for less pay is going to jeopardise patient care.

This is a laceration of the NHS because it's part of a plan to degrade patient care to support the Conservatives ultimate aim to privatise the NHS.

 

[BLOCK F]

His claim is that they want to make the NHS 24/7, it already is 24/7. He is making doctors out to be cut throats when they are some of the most intelligent, caring and giving people in this country who want to be properly recompensed for not being able to see their families during the week or on Saturday. Doctors sacrifice their personal lives to work in intolerable conditions to save others, forcing them to work longer for less pay is going to jeopardise patient care.

This is a laceration of the NHS because it's part of a plan to degrade patient care to support the Conservatives ultimate aim to privatise the NHS.

Rubbish. My father is a retired GP,my aunt is also a retired hospital doctor, my late uncle was a Cardio -Thoracic consultant surgeon and my mother was a nurse. They all had to work the hours that were required and didn't grumble. That was and still is part and parcel of being in the medical profession.
What doctors in this country work in intolerable conditions and what is this plan to degrade patient care?

 

[beorhthelm]

This is a laceration of the NHS because it's part of a plan to degrade patient care to support the Conservatives ultimate aim to privatise the NHS.

there you using that "laceration" word again, maybe you have a different meaning? my dictionary it means to cut. asking doctors to cover the weekend, albeit in a confrontational manner, is not conceivably a cut to services. the NHS is not 24/7, its largly run on daily extended office hours. the clinical outcomes from weekend admissions shows this starkly, because the weekend service relies on doctors chosing to take extra shifts, not as part of normal working rotas. to pay for this they are adjusting the pay and unsocial hours. some will lose out, some will win. Doctors know they will work some unsocial and long hours, its part of that career they enter into and are paid handsomly. this is purely about political knee jerk reactions and pay, the objective is to improve the service and address a particular issue that seems to be getting overlooked.

 

[deletebeepbeepbeep]

Rubbish. My father is a retired GP,my aunt is also a retired hospital doctor, my late uncle was a Cardio -Thoracic consultant surgeon and my mother was a nurse. They all had to work the hours that were required and didn't grumble. That was and still is part and parcel of being in the medical profession.
What doctors in this country work in intolerable conditions and what is this plan to degrade patient care?

What has the experience of long retired NHS workers got to do with anything? All doctors work long hours, the changes will make them work longer hours for less money.

 

[deletebeepbeepbeep]

there you using that "laceration" word again, maybe you have a different meaning? my dictionary it means to cut. asking doctors to cover the weekend, albeit in a confrontational manner, is not conceivably a cut to services. the NHS is not 24/7, its largly run on daily extended office hours. the clinical outcomes from weekend admissions shows this starkly, because the weekend service relies on doctors chosing to take extra shifts, not as part of normal working rotas. to pay for this they are adjusting the pay and unsocial hours. some will lose out, some will win. Doctors know they will work some unsocial and long hours, its part of that career they enter into and are paid handsomly. this is purely about political knee jerk reactions and pay, the objective is to improve the service and address a particular issue that seems to be getting overlooked.

The starting wage for junior doctors is 23k, compare that to lawyers or accountants.

 

[BLOCK F]

What has the experience of long retired NHS workers got to do with anything? All doctors work long hours, the changes will make them work longer hours for less money.

I am pointing out that if you work in the medical profession you have to expect to work long and unsociable hours. If you are not prepared for that, don't enter the profession.
By the way, GP's do not work the hours that they used to. No evenings and weekends in the majority of cases.Oh yes, and if you want to talk about 'laceration', who cocked up the contract with the GP's? No it wasn't the Tories, it was the Labour party.

 

[beorhthelm]

The starting wage for junior doctors is 23k, compare that to lawyers or accountants.

in the first year, rising to 28k 2nd. with a speciality they will be earning 37k four years in to their career, upto 70k in their 8th. pretty comparable those other professions, accountants certainly dont earn alot first few years, and most careers wont be earning >70k automatically within 10 years (or indeed ever). lets not use the entry level training grade as a barometer for the entire profession, it deliberatly distorts the impression of pay.

anyway, the more important issue is that its not a cut in service, its an improvement to provide more doctors at the weekend.

 

[GT49er]

And the golden rule is that in order to win a general election you need to win the centre ground in England.

Well yes, you're quite right, that is the perceived wisdom of the people in Westminster, their friends in the press, and the chattering classes in general.

But it is a perceived wisdom that prevails at a time when a huge proportion of the electorate can't be arsed to turn out for a general election, and even more staying absent from local elections. Like him or loathe him, the sudden and unexpected rise of Jeremy Corbyn to the head of a major party has got far more people talking about politics than usual. Possibly some of these people are those who don't vote because they're tired of the constant willy-waving of our politicians all claiming to be more central than anyone else.

It would be very interesting to see how different the result might be at a general election with, say, a 95+% turnout. No, I don't know the answer to that any more than you do, I'm just posing the question.

I am, however, loving the alarm, thinly disguised as ridicule and mockery, among certain groups that Corbyn's election has caused!

 

[Hampster Gull]

No-one's heard of CND since the 80s, they're bloody irrelevant.

This

 

[Buzzer]

Well yes, you're quite right, that is the perceived wisdom of the people in Westminster, their friends in the press, and the chattering classes in general

Well yes, I guess it is a perceived wisdom, in the same way that it's a perceived wisdom that water is wet, the sun is hot and Pardew is a narcissist. You need the middle ground because that is where most people sit, voters and non-voters. Actually, there's been quite a lot of analysis of the political opinions of non-voters recently, not least by the TUC and they found that voters and non-voters alike had broadly similar views and that non-voters were as distrustful of Labour at the last election as voters. There's lots of analysis here:

http://survation.com/apathy-in-the-uk-understanding-the-attitudes-of-non-voters/
http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/elections/2015/09/can-non-voters-win-next-election-labour

but good luck anyway with trying to win the next election outside the middle ground. It would take something just short of a revolution for that to happen and I truly don't believe the British people much care for political extremism.

 

[GT49er]

Well yes, I guess it is a perceived wisdom, in the same way that it's a perceived wisdom that water is wet, the sun is hot and Pardew is a narcissist.

Point of order: the facts that water is wet and the sun is hot is not perceived wisdom.

 

[Buzzer]

Point of order: the facts that water is wet and the sun is hot is not perceived wisdom.

Point of information, you've quoted me out of context and I never claimed that. I said that it's a perceived wisdom that water is wet in the same way that it's a perceived wisdom that you need to win the middle ground to win an election. i.e neither are perceived/received wisdom. More like truisms.

 

[beorhthelm]

It would be very interesting to see how different the result might be at a general election with, say, a 95+% turnout. No, I don't know the answer to that any more than you do, I'm just posing the question.

well 95% is pretty much fantasy, highest turn out i believe is 88% and normal high turnout is the high 70's. if an entire 10% of the electorate returned to the polls and all voted Labour, that would be a swing like 1997. do you really believe that Corbyn and left wing politics is capable of this, when they have failed to do so for decades (bearing in mind Blair's shifting Labour to the centre)? personally i dont believe there are 4million people suddenly about to start voting for this Labour party that stood on the sidelines for so long.

 

[glasfryn]

Point of information, you've quoted me out of context and I never claimed that. I said that it's a perceived wisdom that water is wet in the same way that it's a perceived wisdom that you need to win the middle ground to win an election. i.e neither are perceived/received wisdom. More like truisms.

it will be interesting just how much of the "middle ground" the tories still have after the tax credits start to disappear especially as they didn't mention them in their manifesto

 

[Soulman]

Jeremy Corbyn is a man of true principle. He has stayed true to his socialist values, and is currently in the middle of redistributing Labour's entire vote.

 

[GT49er]

Point of information, you've quoted me out of context and I never claimed that. I said that it's a perceived wisdom that water is wet in the same way that it's a perceived wisdom that you need to win the middle ground to win an election. i.e neither are perceived/received wisdom. More like truisms.

Didn't quote you out of context at all. You claimed that water is wet is perceived wisdom. It's not; it's a fact, unchanging and unchangeable. Perceived wisdom is something that may ultimately turn out to be correct - or may not, and is subject to change.
For instance, at one time the perceived wisdom was that use of the cane in schools was a proper means of punishment and maintaining discipline. Now the perceived wisdom is, of course, that this is not so.

 

[GT49er]

well 95% is pretty much fantasy, highest turn out i believe is 88% and normal high turnout is the high 70's. if an entire 10% of the electorate returned to the polls and all voted Labour, that would be a swing like 1997. do you really believe that Corbyn and left wing politics is capable of this, when they have failed to do so for decades (bearing in mind Blair's shifting Labour to the centre)? personally i dont believe there are 4million people suddenly about to start voting for this Labour party that stood on the sidelines for so long.

Oh dear, where did I say we would have a 95+% turn out? I didn't - I just said it would be interesting if we did, and I stand by that. And in my very next sentence, I said that I didn't know the answer to what difference it would make any more than you do. I stand by that too, and since I've already stated that I don't know the answer, there isn't really much point in arguing about what the answer might be!

 

[Buzzer]

Didn't quote you out of context at all. You claimed that water is wet is perceived wisdom. It's not; it's a fact, unchanging and unchangeable. Perceived wisdom is something that may ultimately turn out to be correct - or may not, and is subject to change.
For instance, at one time the perceived wisdom was that use of the cane in schools was a proper means of punishment and maintaining discipline. Now the perceived wisdom is, of course, that this is not so.

Once again, no I didn't say that. I'm not sure I can make this any clearer. I'll try again. (and can we please use the phrase 'received wisdom'?)

I said that winning the middle ground in general elections is received wisdom... IN THE SAME WAY THAT......water is wet... IS ALSO... received wisdom. I've capitalised the important bits here. I don't believe that "water is wet" is received wisdom and therefore neither do I believe that "winning the middle ground in GEs" is received wisdom either, hence the comparison!

Seriously, I did not claim anything other than this. I hope this is clear.