Coaching & Football Operations

[Seagull by the Sea]

"You only have to look at other clubs who had a 'Director of Football' or similar to see that it simply does not work."

False - maybe, just maybe if you wanted to make your case you would have followed it up with "in the British game." There are plenty of examples of this system being the prefered method globally with success as a result.

"In Burke's case the signings have been very poor."

False - There have been some not so good signings but he's been involved in Ince, Upson, Bridge, TK, Ward, Conway, Ulloa, Orlandi, Vicente. In addition it looks like he's building some great preospects in the development team

"Either the club trusts Oscar or they don't."

Have you ever considered that growing up the Barcelona way, Oscar doesn't actually see transfer responsibility as part of his role?

"Worryingly, Burke also appears unable to hold onto our better players or at least negotiate full market value for them if they want to go. Bridcutt certainly should have had a % sell on clause attached to him which does not seem to have been done?"

On a day filled by drivel, this is the most clueless thing I've read today. When you say better players - you mean Bridcutt. A better player, who was being offered the opportunity to play in a system a league above us, on more money, in a better team, for an ex-manager and system he loves playing for/in. What exactly was Burke supposed to do? Let Bridcutt sh*g his wife?

How do you know details of the Bridcutt deal that even the media appear to not be able to get hold of?

The other side of the coin is coaching and this is where Nathan Jones comes in. Is he getting the best out of our players? How many started the season ok and have now regressed? Andrews has definitely looked worse recently, David looks completely useless compared to last season, Buckley and LuaLua are not the same even taking into account their injuries. Are we sure that the coaching is up to scratch, is motvational and designed to get the best out of each and every player?

I'll take your word for it on Andrews, David's been better recently but he hasn't had a good year, perhaps age is catching up with him? Buckley was rubbish for most of last year as well, Lua Lua has probably been better this year than last.

Then what about - Ince, March & Dunk who appear to have come on significantly. The true measure of a coach is the development of the young players and they are developing. FAST

My personal view is that Burke must go and Oscar's title should become 'Manager'. You only have to look at Ferguson and Wenger to see that managers who buy what they feel they need and make the decision themselves as to who to buy generally are successful. Even the gobshite at Forest seems to be able to continually buy the players HE wants based on his own judgement.

And for every Ferguson or Wenger there are 1,000 John Barnes'. Just because they made it work, doesn't mean it's the best way.

I appreciate your detailed reply and agree with you that with hindsight, some of my opinions are not generally accepted as accurate.

I have no problem accepting that

 

[The Large One]

Yes, I have and yes it did enlighten me further so found that very useful.

I did mean Burke should go in the part of his job where he identifies the players and that Oscar should become 'Manager' in the sense that he identifies his own players but I guess I still did not make myself clear!

Oscar Garcia tells David Burke what it is that's required - 'go and scout for the type of players we require'. David Burke, with assistance from his network of scouts across Europe, builds up an almighty dossier on every suitable player across the continent playing a given style of football, at a level and salary that the club could reasonably hope to acquire.

But you're saying Oscar should divert some of his attention away from coaching (where he has much expertise and success) towards spending time, effort and resources to talent-spotting individuals (where he has relatively little), taking the job from someone who has a great deal of knowledge and experience in this field?

Yeah, that would work.

 

[Seagull by the Sea]

Out of curiosity, what is your job/career/qualifications?

I'm an ex semi-pro footballer. Now run my own fitness centre.

As I said, my views are based on my previous experiences and what I see with my eyes. Not saying that makes me right but I wanted to raise my views on here and see what direction the discussion went in.

 

[Seagull by the Sea]

Oscar Garcia tells David Burke what it is that's required - 'go and scout for the type of players we require'. David Burke, with assistance from his network of scouts across Europe, builds up an almighty dossier on every suitable player across the continent playing a given style of football, at a level and salary that the club could reasonably hope to acquire.

But you're saying Oscar should divert some of his attention away from coaching (where he has much expertise and success) towards spending time, effort and resources to talent-spotting individuals (where he has relatively little), taking the job from someone who has a great deal of knowledge and experience in this field?

Yeah, that would work.

No, that's not what I am saying.

For example, how many threads have there been since Oscar took over asking where are the spanish flair signings? When are we going to get some Barcelona 'B' players?

The perception is/was that he would be highlighting the actual players he wanted and then Burke/the club can see if they can get a deal done. The reality is that he ended up with Obika.

No disrespect to Obika but he clearly does not play football in the style that suits Oscar's Barcelona philosophy, does he?

 

[MarioOrlandi]

Here's the thing. Nobody is indispensable at the club. Nobody.

Every fan has a right to question how good/bad somebody is. The best way to do that for us who aren't "in the know" is by judging what we know is happening on and off the pitch.

- Playing (largely) great football with average championship players
- 1 game away from FA Cup Quarter Finals
- EIGHTH in the Championship
- An owner with a focus on sustainability rather than immediate success

For me, we've been more attacking this year. We've been LESS clueless and more purposeful when in possession. The problems that I see we have are that we don't quite have the caliber of players and squad size needed to really challenge the big boys of this league. There are some huge names in this league. All things considered, I think the coaching staff have done a great job considering the amount of injuries we've had this year.

That said, I think you can question why:

- We've made more than one totally crap signing this year?
- How come we can't play 90 minutes at a consistently high level?
- Why is only Leo scoring?

I don't think there's a need for all of the doom mongering on here since last night, but these questions do need to be answered. Can we do better? Yes. Of course we can. Should people be fired? I don't know. Only if somebody better can replace them I guess... and I think we've got quite a good thing going with the team we have here. We just need to be patient and give them time. If, after another season (or two) we're clearly not making progress, then maybe we can really start having IN/OUT polls. But until then, let's just leave these problems to the professionals to solve and not adopt the same old "1/2 a season to prove yourself" that everybody else seems to be doing.

Spot on argument matey, we will see Oscars true worth in two or three seasons time, and if he is in for the long haul (which I believe he is) then our new academy will produce some cracking players.

 

[Seagull by the Sea]

False - There have been some not so good signings but he's been involved in Ince, Upson, Bridge, TK, Ward, Conway, Ulloa, Orlandi, Vicente. In addition it looks like he's building some great preospects in the development team


Ah, this is my point exactly...do you believe Burke was responsible for these players being selected or did Gus know about them and asked Burke to see if he could sign them?

IMO this is where I believe things have changed and Burke is now selecting the players for Oscar who then decides if he wants them, there is clearly a difference between that and what I believe happened with Gus.

 

[BensGrandad]

The Bridcutt deal was undisclosed so how do you know there is no sell on clause ?

Didnt I read an interview with PB in which he said the speculation on the fee we received for Liam Bridcutt is way out and not even near to being correct.

 

[The Large One]

No, that's not what I am saying.

For example, how many threads have there been since Oscar took over asking where are the spanish flair signings? When are we going to get some Barcelona 'B' players?

The perception is/was that he would be highlighting the actual players he wanted and then Burke/the club can see if they can get a deal done. The reality is that he ended up with Obika.

No disrespect to Obika but he clearly does not play football in the style that suits Oscar's Barcelona philosophy, does he?

Nor did Dobbie. So that's that spurious contention exploded.

So, because we don't have any former Barcelona 'B' players, Oscar has little or no say in player acquisition?

Ah, this is my point exactly...do you believe Burke was responsible for these players being selected or did Gus know about them and asked Burke to see if he could sign them?

IMO this is where I believe things have changed and Burke is now selecting the players for Oscar who then decides if he wants them, there is clearly a difference between that and what I believe happened with Gus.

Now you're just being totally arbitrary, based - as you say - on perception and your own sense of belief, rather with any evidence, aside from anecdotal.

Your contention appears to be that under Gus, it was GP himself who identified individuals, where as now everything has changed, and it's David Burke alone - and Oscar gets what he's given.

 

[symyjym]

For example, how many threads have there been since Oscar took over asking where are the spanish flair signings? When are we going to get some Barcelona 'B' players?

If the plan is to bring in one or two Spanish flair signings, how could we get the best ones over here without a base to train from? or any flair signing come to think of it?

 

[Seagull by the Sea]

Nor did Dobbie. So that's that spurious contention exploded.

So, because we don't have any former Barcelona 'B' players, Oscar has little or no say in player acquisition?



Now you're just being totally arbitrary, based - as you say - on perception and your own sense of belief, rather with any evidence, aside from anecdotal.

Your contention appears to be that under Gus, it was GP himself who identified individuals, where as now everything has changed, and it's David Burke alone - and Oscar gets what he's given.

Yet again, no.

Either ai am struggling to make myself understood or you are not understanding me.

I have said from the beginning that these are my own personal views and opened up the forum to discuss so obviously my views are based on what I perceive to be happening, I am not saying my views are backed up by evidence not am I saying I am definitely correct.

I am also not saying that Oscar gets what he is given at all, I said that he chooses from a pool of players rather than giving over a list of players he knows about that he would like to have. I believe Gus did this for a lot of the signings that were made previously, ie Orlandi, Bruno, Bridge, Vicente to name a few.

I am quantifying my reasoning by saying that the quality of those types of players when compared with, say, Obika, who was maybe all that we could afford/was available, I believe justifies my decision to say this.

I might have 2+2 and equal 5 but it is what I believe and am putting it out there as a though, an idea, to see if people agree.

There have also been little snippets from Oscar which may allude to him being frustrated with the lack of a signing of a decent striker, such as Naylor's tweet last week so I am merely asking the question of whether others believe he is getting a say or the right support or indeed the same level of suppor Gus had.

Nothing I have said or asked should cause anyone to get upset or defensive. This is a discussion forum, I am putting things out there for us to discuss.

I have not said in any of my posts that this is the gospel truth or that I am definitely right and in fact, I have stars that I happy to debate the issues and can be swayed to change my views if there is a stronger argument than mine out there. It's not like we are doing some serious life of death work here!