Coaching & Football Operations

[Seagull by the Sea]

I have read a lot of negative comments about Nathan Jones and David Burke recently so thought I'd start a thread to deal with both at the same time.

Regarding Burke, there is, I believe, a strong case for his position to be reviewed now. You only have to look at other clubs who had a 'Director of Football' or similar to see that it simply does not work.

Wise at Newcastle, Kinnear at Newcastle, Comolli at Spurs & Liverpool, also names I've forgotten at Spurs (again), Chelsea (pre Mourinho), Sunderland (during Di Cannio's term). The facts are simple; these guys are judged by the quality of the signings they initially scout, watch and make judgements on for their 'Head Coaches' to choose from.

In Burke's case the signings have been very poor. I know Oscar has the final say but he needs to have faith in Burke and his scouts judgements that the players he is choosing from are good enough for the first team. This is especially crucial for a manager who is new to the English leagues and is relying heavily on the right information being given to him.

Worryingly, Burke also appears unable to hold onto our better players or at least negotiate full market value for them if they want to go. Bridcutt certainly should have had a % sell on clause attached to him which does not seem to have been done?

Burke's remit is simple and like all of us in our own workplace, he is judged by his results and they do not appear to be good at all. He obviously recommended Lita and Obika FFS.

The other side of the coin is coaching and this is where Nathan Jones comes in. Is he getting the best out of our players? How many started the season ok and have now regressed? Andrews has definitely looked worse recently, David looks completely useless compared to last season, Buckley and LuaLua are not the same even taking into account their injuries. Are we sure that the coaching is up to scratch, is motvational and designed to get the best out of each and every player?

My personal view is that Burke must go and Oscar's title should become 'Manager'. You only have to look at Ferguson and Wenger to see that managers who buy what they feel they need and make the decision themselves as to who to buy generally are successful. Even the gobshite at Forest seems to be able to continually buy the players HE wants based on his own judgement.

Either the club trusts Oscar or they don't.

I think Jones is not experienced enough and therefore not ready to be a 'No 2' at a club that has the sort of ambitions we have.

In Oscar I trust but he is being badly let down by his support team.

Discuss!

 

[ali jenkins]

How on earth do you know a) what targets Burke has come up with b) how much we have sold players for? (Certainly we got decent money for Barnes and El Abd) c) how do you know what clauses are in Bridcutt's deal?

 

[deletebeepbeepbeep]

And D) how effective NJ is at the training ground, have you done badges yourself and watched the team train?

 

[Brighton Breezy]

There is actually a very sensible argument for having a director of football type working alongside a manager to sign players.

Managers tend to have a shelf life or around two to three seasons so are more concerned about the immediate future of a football club and often their signings reflect this. A head of football operations will, hopefully, take a more long-term view of the situation.

I would rather have a committee of sorts identifying players who suited the club, had a potential resale value, were of a good age and available at a justifiable wage rather than an all-powerful manager signings players for the here and now with no regard for the long term future of the club.

The manager/head coach should, of course, have the final say on whether someone signs or not. But I think it is quite healthy for them not to have the entire decision.

 

[Lady Whistledown]

My personal view is that Burke must go and Oscar's title should become 'Manager'. You only have to look at Ferguson and Wenger to see that managers who buy what they feel they need and make the decision themselves as to who to buy generally are successful. Even the gobshite at Forest seems to be able to continually buy the players HE wants based on his own judgement.

Is that Arsenal and Man United, two of the richest clubs in Europe, yes? And Nottingham Forest, a club who are widely suspected to be throwing FFP requirements to the wind and staking all their chips on getting promotion this season? Who have about eight strikers, most of whom are probably on £20k per week?

Now. Do you think their managers signing specific players they want is down to their personal charisma and desire, or the fact that their clubs pay extremely generous salaries?

 

[seagullsovergrimsby]

The Bridcutt deal was undisclosed so how do you know there is no sell on clause ?

 

[Bozza]

Bridcutt certainly should have had a % sell on clause attached to him which does not seem to have been done?

Yes there is.

 

[dougdeep]

Great. Let's all make decisions based on guesswork. Burke might be doing his job badly and Jones might not know what he's doing so sack them both just in case.

 

[The Large One]

Discuss!

Certainly.

1. Comparing Burke's role here, nor the system employed, with those at other clubs has no value. We run our ship our way, they do theirs their way.

2. It's quite a leap to presume that he is solely judged on the quality of the acquisitions.

3. Suggest you don't re-write history regarding personnel acquisition as an argument for his dismissal.

4. Take all factors into account regarding his role, as you've missed out on may before coming your conclusions.

5. That would be Nottingham Forest, who have their own equivalent of David Burke, a fella called Bobby Downes?

6. Suggest you do some research into what his role is before coming up with your own supposition.

Apart from the innuendo, speculation, assumption and errors - cracking argument.

 

[Springal]

Love the MASSIVE assumptions made here. And Oscar has NEVER been a manager, so maybe he doesn't want to. He managed OK at Maccabi Tel Aviv with a DoF?

If Bloom is happy, I am happy. He wasn't with Ken Brown, and he didn't hang around.

 

[shaolinpunk]

I don't really know any specifics about the setup and who does what and how effectively, but I'm going to tell you how to fix the problem that absolutely must be there because I said it is

 

[TWOCHOICEStom]

Here's the thing. Nobody is indispensable at the club. Nobody.

Every fan has a right to question how good/bad somebody is. The best way to do that for us who aren't "in the know" is by judging what we know is happening on and off the pitch.

- Playing (largely) great football with average championship players
- 1 game away from FA Cup Quarter Finals
- EIGHTH in the Championship
- An owner with a focus on sustainability rather than immediate success

For me, we've been more attacking this year. We've been LESS clueless and more purposeful when in possession. The problems that I see we have are that we don't quite have the caliber of players and squad size needed to really challenge the big boys of this league. There are some huge names in this league. All things considered, I think the coaching staff have done a great job considering the amount of injuries we've had this year.

That said, I think you can question why:

- We've made more than one totally crap signing this year?
- How come we can't play 90 minutes at a consistently high level?
- Why is only Leo scoring?

I don't think there's a need for all of the doom mongering on here since last night, but these questions do need to be answered. Can we do better? Yes. Of course we can. Should people be fired? I don't know. Only if somebody better can replace them I guess... and I think we've got quite a good thing going with the team we have here. We just need to be patient and give them time. If, after another season (or two) we're clearly not making progress, then maybe we can really start having IN/OUT polls. But until then, let's just leave these problems to the professionals to solve and not adopt the same old "1/2 a season to prove yourself" that everybody else seems to be doing.

 

[Blue Valkyrie]

If Burke is head of football operations, surely one of his performance targets must be reaching the Premier League

We cannot expect too much progress in the cup competitions whilst we have such a poor selection of second string keepers.

I have quite a downer on Burke at the moment, admittedly, but surely at some point he'll have a performance assessment, and the question of why we haven't yet reached the Premier League will be discussed in detail ?

 

[Grombleton]

I have read a lot of negative comments about Nathan Jones and David Burke recently so thought I'd start a thread to deal with both at the same time.

Regarding Burke, there is, I believe, a strong case for his position to be reviewed now. You only have to look at other clubs who had a 'Director of Football' or similar to see that it simply does not work.

Wise at Newcastle, Kinnear at Newcastle, Comolli at Spurs & Liverpool, also names I've forgotten at Spurs (again), Chelsea (pre Mourinho), Sunderland (during Di Cannio's term). The facts are simple; these guys are judged by the quality of the signings they initially scout, watch and make judgements on for their 'Head Coaches' to choose from.

In Burke's case the signings have been very poor. I know Oscar has the final say but he needs to have faith in Burke and his scouts judgements that the players he is choosing from are good enough for the first team. This is especially crucial for a manager who is new to the English leagues and is relying heavily on the right information being given to him.

Worryingly, Burke also appears unable to hold onto our better players or at least negotiate full market value for them if they want to go. Bridcutt certainly should have had a % sell on clause attached to him which does not seem to have been done?

Burke's remit is simple and like all of us in our own workplace, he is judged by his results and they do not appear to be good at all. He obviously recommended Lita and Obika FFS.

The other side of the coin is coaching and this is where Nathan Jones comes in. Is he getting the best out of our players? How many started the season ok and have now regressed? Andrews has definitely looked worse recently, David looks completely useless compared to last season, Buckley and LuaLua are not the same even taking into account their injuries. Are we sure that the coaching is up to scratch, is motvational and designed to get the best out of each and every player?

My personal view is that Burke must go and Oscar's title should become 'Manager'. You only have to look at Ferguson and Wenger to see that managers who buy what they feel they need and make the decision themselves as to who to buy generally are successful. Even the gobshite at Forest seems to be able to continually buy the players HE wants based on his own judgement.

Either the club trusts Oscar or they don't.

I think Jones is not experienced enough and therefore not ready to be a 'No 2' at a club that has the sort of ambitions we have.

In Oscar I trust but he is being badly let down by his support team.

Discuss!

You are aware that Burke may have had a list of players that are very attractive propositions, but they/their club don't want them to go? This isn't Football Manager - we can't just target a player, put in a bid and they pack their bags and join us.

 

[Lady Whistledown]

By the way, Sunderland are still looking to appoint a Director of Football.

And those Barcelona & Bayern directors of football have done a bloody appalling job over the years. Yes, it's definitely an obsolete role. You're right.

 

[The Large One]

If Burke is head of football operations, surely one of his performance targets must be reaching the Premier League

We cannot expect too much progress in the cup competitions whilst we have such a poor selection of second string keepers.

I have quite a downer on Burke at the moment, admittedly, but surely at some point he'll have a performance assessment, and the question of why we haven't yet reached the Premier League will be discussed in detail.

At the risk of sounding dull (moi? jamais...), to understand and appreciate the nature of his role, listen to the interview we did with him.

www.albionroar.co.uk/archive.php

 

[The Wookiee]

Get rid if Jones and bring in Curbishley

 

[skipper734]

http://www.albionroar.co.uk/archive.php

Just reiterating TLO's post, it really is all in this interview. In Burke's own words.

 

[Seagull by the Sea]

Wow! I didn't expect such a backlash so maybe I should answer as much as I can and maybe be clearer in my view...

I didn't mean that the role of DOF was obsolete just that it works for some clubs and not others.

IMO I believe that as Oscar has clearly got a very set way of playing and needs players of a particular type to suit his system, it would work better for him if he had the chance to scout his own players. Now I understand that may not be possible or it may simply be not the way the club want to do it but I believe it would work better. If Burke has other responsibilities then great, I did not mean to say that he should be sacked just not be in control of transfers.

I obviously do not know what terms were agreed for Bridcutt but I have read on here (and maybe I should take it with a pinch of salt) that add ons were to do with staying up etc, not sell ons. Bozza, if you know different then great but it appears you are the only one privy to that info.

Just because Arsenal, Man Utd and Forest pay over the odds, it does not mean that is what they get the players they want. My argument was not to spend lots of money but to highlight that the managers at those clubs pick the players and then their 'team' do the negotiating. Billy Davies made it very clear in the press when he returned, as did their Chairman, that he would be in full control of selecting the players they try to buy and the DOF there then tries to do the deal.

The shelf life of a manager may well be a few years but I still believe, MY opinion, that you either back the manager or you don't and you trust his player choices while he is there or you don't. It cannot be. A councidence that the most successful teams have managers for the long term who select their own players (ie Ferguson & Wenger).

The argument that Bayern Munich etc. do this is an unfair comparison as there is a degree of 'safety' when you are buying a proven, international star but the risk factor increases significantly the less you are paying for the player.

There surely cannot be a single person on here that beleives Oscar chose Obika? He must have trusted the advice of NJ or Burke or both. If Oscar did choose him he would trust him more and play him more wouldn't he? Managers don't tend to give up on players and seldomly play them so quickly after buying them and by not bringing on Obika last night until the 89th minute it appears that Oscar does not believe Obika would have scored the equaliser.

With regards my comments on NJ's coaching; I obviously have not seen them train but I have played football at a decent standard and in MY opinion, I do not believe the way the team plays (at times) points to successful coaching. Sometimes, a coach has to motivate a player before or during games. I saw plenty of that with CO under Gus. I believe that the team look slower this season and almost pedestrian like at times, some players simply do not look as physically fit as they were last season. This can be checked by checking at OPTA stats for their various runs, km covered, acceleration runs etc but again, it is MY opinion and is designed to generate debate but certainly not animosity!

I think I have covered most of the replies but I want to make it clear that I am not trying to be a 'downer', nor am I anti Burke or NJ, I am a supporter of over 30 years and am merely making a personal viewpoint on what I see and believe to be true. It does not mean I cannot accept different viewpoints to my own!

Great discussion so far though!...

 

[Seagull by the Sea]

I don't really know any specifics about the setup and who does what and how effectively, but I'm going to tell you how to fix the problem that absolutely must be there because I said it is

Very unfair comment as I never said I wanted to 'fix' anything.

This is a forum, I made an opinion. You can like or dislike it but ridiculing it is pointless.

Read my re-post and hopefully my motives will be clearer.