[Misc] Churchill

[knocky1]

Doubt it. Were you actually around 'at that time', or have you just grown up in more progressive times, with a tendency to condemn anything that went before?


Evidence that he was 'more racist' than other people at the time? No - this would have been pretty much a majority opinion back then. The (absolutely correct) idea that black people are not an inferior race to white people is, in historical terms, a fairly recent concept. Go back two or three generations, and to the majority of people such an idea would have been unthinkable.
Be thankful that we have moved on - but it is a nonsense to judge the actions people took hundreds of years ago - even decades ago - by the standards of today.

I haven't judged I've reported. He's talking genocide. Exactly what Hitler started on 3 years after Churchill's speech in 1940. Nothing was said by Churchill until 1944 about extermination camps in Germany. Then it was ignored and German civilians were annihalated instead.

 

[KZNSeagull]

That's one of the reasons I don't like films much as history is changed for the sake of entertainment, but then the film is taken as history by a lot of people.
Most Americans believe they recovered the Enigma machine, when bits of it were provided by the Polish underground. A complete Enigma machine was captured by HMS Bulldog in 1941.

Indeed. I wonder how many people believe that William Wallace sired Edward III, despite Wallace being executed 7 years before Edward III's birth and Isabella actually only being a toddler at the time of the supposed conception.

 

[Eeyore]

I've never been inspired or repelled by Churchill. Some may say there is cause for both. Admittedly, he was a pretty brutal sort who was happy to trade innocent lives and sanctioned some pretty rotten, and seemingly needless, actions. I also think that the war effort was a massive exercise in pluralism. It is often said Churchill struggled without Eden. There was an inter-dependency.

So, being someone who wasn't there I have no opinion on him- except to say that our nation probably needed him for the role he performed.

 

[Bladders]

That's one of the reasons I don't like films much as history is changed for the sake of entertainment, but then the film is taken as history by a lot of people.
Most Americans believe they recovered the Enigma machine, when bits of it were provided by the Polish underground. A complete Enigma machine was captured by HMS Bulldog in 1941.

There's one out later this year, set in 1982 a crack American unit of 5 Navy Seals who are the best of the best of the best, retake the Falkland Islands from zombified Argentine soldiers after the British fleet of one fishing trawler floundered off the coast of Portsmouth and had to return to port after losing the crews consignment of Earl Grey, bowler hats and Cucumber sandwiches.

Its going to be a trilogy too.

 

[5mins-from-amex]

Great leader of men, would not have won the war without him.

 

[Uncle Spielberg]

If it were not for Churchill we would all be speaking German now

 

[Thunder Bolt]

There's one out later this year, set in 1982 a crack American unit of 5 Navy Seals who are the best of the best of the best, retake the Falkland Islands from zombified Argentine soldiers after the British fleet of one fishing trawler floundered off the coast of Portsmouth and had to return to port after losing the crews consignment of Earl Grey, bowler hats and Cucumber sandwiches.

Its going to be a trilogy too.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Great leader of men, would not have won the war without him.

Cometh the hour, cometh the man.

Wellington, and Nelson weren't angels either.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

I haven't judged I've reported. He's talking genocide. Exactly what Hitler started on 3 years after Churchill's speech in 1940. Nothing was said by Churchill until 1944 about extermination camps in Germany. Then it was ignored and German civilians were annihalated instead.

This is the timeline of the Holocaust. Jews were being killed in the 1930s albeit not on a extermination level.
Look at 1939.
1939
Hitler predicts that if there is war, Jews will be exterminated.

http://www.ppu.org.uk/genocide/g_holocaust.html

Britain (not Churchill) warned Germany that if they invaded Poland, war would be declared.

 

[happypig]

Made himself a bit unpopular with the French when he ordered the attack on Mers-el Kebir but at the same time convinced Roosevelt of his ruthlessness and (probably) ensured the Americans would enter the war in Europe.

On the other hand, a moody old pisshead

 

[ofco8]

All I can say is I am glad he was at the right place at the right time.

Inspiring speeches.

 

[5mins-from-amex]

Made himself a bit unpopular with the French when he ordered the attack on Mers-el Kebir but at the same time convinced Roosevelt of his ruthlessness and (probably) ensured the Americans would enter the war in Europe.

On the other hand, a moody old pisshead

If the French fleet had of falling into German hands the home fleet would have been out numbered, a scenario that could not become reality. Churchill gave the French the option the sail with the Royal Navy but they declined, its sad that people like to use this decision to label Churchill as a war criminal.

 

[Bladders]

If the French fleet had of falling into German hands the home fleet would have been out numbered, a scenario that could not become reality. Churchill gave the French the option the sail with the Royal Navy but they declined, its sad that people like to use this decision to label Churchill as a war criminal.

What we need is more Corbyn types during times of total war

 

[Bladders]

nah, he was a massive racist

I hope you weren't presuming his gender, you dinosaur from a byegone era you!

 

[5mins-from-amex]

What we need is more Corbyn types during times of total war

Indeed, if that clown was PM at the time the Hood would have been sailing around with no 15'' shells.

 

[happypig]

If the French fleet had of falling into German hands the home fleet would have been out numbered, a scenario that could not become reality. Churchill gave the French the option the sail with the Royal Navy but they declined, its sad that people like to use this decision to label Churchill as a war criminal.

Churchill gave them three choices; sail with the RN (with or without a French crew), scuttle or abandon ship and let the RN sink them. Churchill didn't believe that they wouldn't take any of them; Albert Lebrun, President of France, didn't believe Churchill would order the RN to fire on manned ships. He was wrong.

People labelling Churchill a war criminal need to read a bit more and understand the threat we (alone) were facing.

 

[FamilyGuy]

Very good speech and well delivered - but it was made in the House of Commons and as there wasn't recording equipment present at Westminster in 1940 he didn't make it on the radio later on either on the evening of June 18th either as some believe. It was recorded after the war.

I think you'll find that Churchill was persuaded to broadcast the same speech on the BBC 9 o/c Radio News that same night, however the second time around it was described as "lack lustre".

As evidenced by Harold Nicolson (Under Sec of State) in a letter to his wife:
"How I wish Winston would not talk on the wireless unless he is feeling in good form. He hates the microphone and when we bullied him into speaking last night, he just sulked and read his House of Commons speech over again. Now, as delivered in the House of Commons, that speech was magnificent, especially the concluding sentences. But it sounded ghastly on the wireless. All the great vigour he put into it seemed to evaporate."

 

[Thunder Bolt]

If the French fleet had of falling into German hands the home fleet would have been out numbered, a scenario that could not become reality. Churchill gave the French the option the sail with the Royal Navy but they declined, its sad that people like to use this decision to label Churchill as a war criminal.

I am a member of the HMS Hood Association, as my Dad served on her 37-39. I have met a couple of people who were on board when Mers-el-Kebir happened, and a French sailor, a survivor from a ship in that fleet. They went to each others memorial services.
I know Commander Keith Evans said he felt bad about having to sink the fleet, but war is a dirty business. Andre, the Frenchman also understood that it was needed at the time. Both lovely men. Commander Evans is now 97, and still going strong.

 

[beorhthelm]

nah, he was a massive racist

imperialist i believe is the correct term.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Churchill gave them three choices; sail with the RN (with or without a French crew), scuttle or abandon ship and let the RN sink them. Churchill didn't believe that they wouldn't take any of them; Albert Lebrun, President of France, didn't believe Churchill would order the RN to fire on manned ships. He was wrong.

People labelling Churchill a war criminal need to read a bit more and understand the threat we (alone) were facing.

http://www.hmshood.com/history/forceh/oran.htm

When the Hood was sunk by the Bismark in May 1941, there were Free French serving on board with us.