[Misc] Christians seem to be really good people

[Bold Seagull]

Christ on a unicycle, get a room you two lovebirds.

I am sure there is a Christian forum you two can take this story/faith too ?


You have not won any arguments, people have are just given up conversing with you, because you believe and others don't.

I think @BadFish is playing his satirical role a little too well.

 

[kuzushi]

Just like the apostles did in the days after the resurrection. Then 80 years later they sat down and wrote all about it.

Paul wrote 1 Corinthians 15 about 20 years after the crucifixion/resurrection.

 

[Jolly Red Giant]

That's pretty ballsy of them, right after the crucifixion of their leader. Wow.

The house of Savoy

1. Necessity is the mother of action

2. I stand corrected - my fingers got ahead of my brain on that one. But this is interesting - because you clearly are aware of the historical reasons why the Shroud was hyped up for political purposes - but you choose to ignore the rest of the evidence around this.

3. If you want to try and defend the Shroud you need to do better that posting a youtube video from a Christian fundamentalist who makes a lot of money from his preaching.

 

[kuzushi]

1. Necessity is the mother of action

But there was no necessity if Jesus didn't rise from the dead.

2. I stand corrected - my fingers got ahead of my brain on that one. But this is interesting - because you clearly are aware of the historical reasons why the Shroud was hyped up for political purposes - but you choose to ignore the rest of the evidence around this.

It might have been hyped up for political purposes as you say, but that has no bearing on its authenticity.

3. If you want to try and defend the Shroud you need to do better that posting a youtube video from a Christian fundamentalist who makes a lot of money from his preaching.

I can do a lot more, but can't put everything into every post.

 

[Sid and the Sharknados]

Nope - I am not in any way an expert in antiquity - but I have read a lot of material (including the bible) and I do know the process of research, interpretation and formulation of historical assertions - it is a rigorous and scientific method. Over the course of my few contributions on this thread I have not just spouting the first thing that came into my head - but have actually gone off and read stuff before posting to ensure that I eliminated bias as much as possible and didn't make historical errors. Unfortunately the same can not be said of those who advocate for the existence of a deity, his son and relics like the Shroud. You have to have blind faith for such things - irrespective of the evidence in front of you.

Now - there is nothing wrong with this - everyone is entitled to believe whatever they want - and I will defend the right of every individual to believe in whatever deity they want, to practice whatever religious rituals they want (provided they do not harm or infringe on other living creatures) and support them whenever they are persecuted for their religious beliefs. But the line is drawn when religious fundamentalists attempt to force their world view on wider society - and do so irrespective of the consequences for society. Christianity has been part of the mechanism whereby slavery was an integral part of the establishment and flourishing of capitalism, it has been a method by which imperial powers have subjugated indigenous peoples, it has created a society whereby women have faced centuries of subjugation etc. etc. And these things happened because certain individuals 'believed' they knew the 'absolute truth' (or in a lot of cases were willing to claim they did to gain or keep political and/or economic power).

I am always conscious of the potential of bias in my historical research from my political views and that is why I consciously act to ensure to minimise the potential for it happening in my own historical research (and I actually adopt the same approach to my political views which never remain static and immovable - I constantly change my political views - sometimes very marginally, sometimes significantly, based on new evidence or new developments in society). In historical research I never start with a hypothesis and try to prove it - anyone can fit any evidence into their world view (as we can see with religious fundamentalists). Furthermore, I am constantly changing my analysis of historical events and processes based on the discovery of new evidence - I actually change my mind on stuff every single day when I am engaged in this work. You can never stop learning and you can never have a closed mind to the potential for new evidence changing your viewpoint.

Thanks for the reply.
Sorry, I should have been clearer, by "this subject" I was referring to your mention of 19th and 20th century labour history.
The latter part of your reply I think covers it, but there's such an obvious overlap between that subject and the politics you occasionally refer to on here that it occurred to me as a question.
Thanks again

 

[Baldseagull]

____________________________Accounts for the empty tomb_____________Explains the provenance of the Shroud of Turin
Kuzushi's resurrection theory_______________________________________________________________________________
Kuzushi's alien cyborg theory_______________________________________________________________________________
Bart Ehrman's GH* theory__________________________________________________________________________________
JRG's 'shade' theory______________________________________________________________________________________
Happy exile's Boris Johnson theory__________________________________________________________________________

Strange that we need theories to explain the shroud of Turin, which has no mention in history before the middle ages. Finding an empty tomb (if it occurred at all) means either he was never in it, he left it under his own steam, or was carried out of it.
According to John he was wrapped in strips of linen, not a single sheet, so is your shroud real and John a bit unrelieable, or John reliable and your shroud a fake, could be both?

 

[BadFish]

Strange that we need theories to explain the shroud of Turin, which has no mention in history before the middle ages. Finding an empty tomb (if it occurred at all) means either he was never in it, he left it under his own steam, or was carried out of it.
According to John he was wrapped in strips of linen, not a single sheet, so is your shroud real and John a bit unrelieable, or John reliable and your shroud a fake, could be both?

The Turin shroud is a total miracle as kuzushi has pointed out. It is both one of the most examined and tested religious relics and one of the most protected.

 

[Blues Guitarist]

1. The empty tomb - someone robbed the body (probably the followers of Jesus)

Grave was quite possibly robbed, but probably not by Jesus's followers.

The tomb was owned by Joseph of Arimathea, a member of the Sanhedrin council that unanimously condemned Jesus to death. The tomb was guarded by Roman soldiers, the people who carried out the punishment. The gospels made up a story about the guards having a meeting with the elders to discuss the missing body (Matthew 28:11-15). It is clearly fiction as Matthew (or anyone else involved in writing the gospels) wasn't there.

Was the body removed by the Sanhedrin and the Romans? I don't know, but that looks more likely than a resurrection. If there had been a resurrection, why would the gospel writer make up a story about the meeting?

 

[Baldseagull]

But there was no necessity if Jesus didn't rise from the dead.


It might have been hyped up for political purposes as you say, but that has no bearing on its authenticity.


I can do a lot more, but can't put everything into every post.

If he was just recuperating, after a nasty ordeal, it would be necessary, or if they wanted to create the illusion that he had risen from the dead, it would be necessary to hide the corpse.
You can't see past what you want to believe and accept that there are at least other possible explanations than a resurrection taking place. It does not make any of those explanations truthful to accept that they are possible, you can still believe in magic, but please stop pretending magic is the only answer.

 

[Baldseagull]

Grave was quite possibly robbed, but probably not by Jesus's followers.

The tomb was owned by Joseph of Arimathea, a member of the Sanhedrin council that unanimously condemned Jesus to death. The tomb was guarded by Roman soldiers, the people who carried out the punishment. The gospels made up a story about the guards having a meeting with the elders to discuss the missing body (Matthew 28:11-15). It is clearly fiction as Matthew (or anyone else involved in writing the gospels) wasn't there.

Was the body removed by the Sanhedrin and the Romans? I don't know, but that looks more likely than a resurrection. If there had been a resurrection, why would the gospel writer make up a story about the meeting?

It is a possibility, and perhaps for similar reasons to US Marines dumping Bin Ladens corpse at sea, to prevent a shrine and place of worship being created around his tomb. Seems to have backfired though if that is what happened.

 

[kuzushi]

Strange that we need theories to explain the shroud of Turin, which has no mention in history before the middle ages. Finding an empty tomb (if it occurred at all) means either he was never in it, he left it under his own steam, or was carried out of it.
According to John he was wrapped in strips of linen, not a single sheet, so is your shroud real and John a bit unrelieable, or John reliable and your shroud a fake, could be both?

You say it has no mention, but it wouldn't have been called the Shroud of Turin, obviously.
Some researchers think it is one and the same thing as the Image of Edessa.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image_of_Edessa#Links_with_the_Shroud_of_Turin

It has also been linked to the Sudarium of Oviedo in Spain.
There are over a hundred points of coincidence between the blood stains on the sudarium and those on the shroud. Just 40 are needed for a positive ID using facial recognition technology. This suggests that the sudarium and the shroud both came from the same person. It is known that the sudarium traces its history back to Jerusalem, via north Africa. It reached Toledo in 657 AD.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudarium_of_Oviedo#Background_and_history

Here is the Hungarian pray codex, which dates to around 1195, about 100 years before the earliest date indicated by the radiocarbon dating test of 1988.

As with the Shroud, Jesus is shown entirely naked with the arms on the pelivs, as in the body image of the Shroud of Turin; the thumbs on the image appear to be retracted, with only four fingers visible on each hand, matching the detail on the Turin Shroud; the supposed fabric shows a herringbone pattern, similar to the weaving pattern of the Shroud; and the four tiny circles on the lower image, which appear to form a letter L, "perfectly reproduce four apparent "poker holes" on the Turin Shroud", which likewise appear to form a letter L, leading to the suggestion that the artist drew inspiration from the Shroud.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pray_Codex

 

[kuzushi]

If he was just recuperating, after a nasty ordeal, it would be necessary, or if they wanted to create the illusion that he had risen from the dead, it would be necessary to hide the corpse.
You can't see past what you want to believe and accept that there are at least other possible explanations than a resurrection taking place. It does not make any of those explanations truthful to accept that they are possible, you can still believe in magic, but please stop pretending magic is the only answer.

I'm not pretending that the resurrection ("magic" as you call it) is the only answer.
It seems to be the only sensible answer that explains all three points: the disciples sincere belief that Jesus had risen, the empty tomb, and the Shroud of Turin.
Can you think of another explanation that explains all three in one fell swoop?

Also, group hallucinations are about as possible as group dreams.

 

[BadFish]

I'm not pretending that the resurrection ("magic" as you call it) is the only answer.
It seems to be the only sensible answer that explains all three points: the disciples sincere belief that Jesus had risen, the empty tomb, and the Shroud of Turin.
Can you think of another explanation that explains all three in one fell swoop?

Also, group hallucinations are about as possible as group dreams.

This surely calls for another holy table.

Tables slay the heritic.

 

[Baldseagull]

You say it has no mention, but it wouldn't have been called the Shroud of Turin, obviously.
Some researchers think it is one and the same thing as the Image of Edessa.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image_of_Edessa#Links_with_the_Shroud_of_Turin

It has also been linked to the Sudarium of Oviedo in Spain.
There are over a hundred points of coincidence between the blood stains on the sudarium and those on the shroud. Just 40 are needed for a positive ID using facial recognition technology. This suggests that the sudarium and the shroud both came from the same person. It is known that the sudarium traces its history back to Jerusalem, via north Africa. It reached Toledo in 657 AD.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudarium_of_Oviedo#Background_and_history

Here is the Hungarian pray codex, which dates to around 1195, about 100 years before the earliest date indicated by the radiocarbon dating test of 1988.

View attachment 162573

As with the Shroud, Jesus is shown entirely naked with the arms on the pelivs, as in the body image of the Shroud of Turin; the thumbs on the image appear to be retracted, with only four fingers visible on each hand, matching the detail on the Turin Shroud; the supposed fabric shows a herringbone pattern, similar to the weaving pattern of the Shroud; and the four tiny circles on the lower image, which appear to form a letter L, "perfectly reproduce four apparent "poker holes" on the Turin Shroud", which likewise appear to form a letter L, leading to the suggestion that the artist drew inspiration from the Shroud.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pray_Codex

Entirely naked, hands placed to cover his cock, the geezer with the orange hat appears to have a thumb and 3 fingers, this is proof that he is Dan Burn. The guy rubbing lotion onto the naked man has no visible thumbs either, what does this mean?

 

[kuzushi]

The Turin shroud is a total miracle as kuzushi has pointed out. It is both one of the most examined and tested religious relics and one of the most protected.

Indeed. No one knew that was a photographic negative until 1898, when it was photographed for the first time. The idea just didn't occur to anyone. Except the forger, obviously. Yes, of course, the forger must have known he was producing a photographic negative. Unless he did it by accident. What about the 3D and holographic information encoded into the image? That was very clever, too.

 

[BadFish]

Indeed. No one knew that was a photographic negative until 1898, when it was photographed for the first time. The idea just didn't occur to anyone. Except the forger, obviously. Yes, of course, the forger must have known he was producing a photographic negative. Unless he did it by accident. What about the 3D and holographic information encoded into the image? That was very clever, too.

Exactly the point I was making.

 

[Jolly Red Giant]

Also, group hallucinations are about as possible as group dreams.

During the mid-1980s we had a phenomenon in Ireland known as the 'moving statues' - starting when an individual stared at a statue in Cork and told everyone that it spontaneously moved. Then hundreds (and later thousands) of religious fundamentalists turned up, stared at the statue for hours and all saw it move (not move in the same way - but that is beside the point). The same individuals turned up at dozens of other statues and saw them 'move' after staring at them for minutes/hours. No matter how many medical professionals told them that any inanimate object will move if your stare at it long enough - the fundamentalists wouldn't budge - god was sending them a message.

Reminded me of this -

 

[kuzushi]

Exactly the point I was making.

It was a very good point. Thanks for making it.

 

[BadFish]

It was a very good point. Thanks for making it.

How do you think it is going so far? Will our conversion rate be enough to get this summer's prize?

 

[Baldseagull]

I'm not pretending that the resurrection ("magic" as you call it) is the only answer.
It seems to be the only sensible answer that explains all three points: the disciples sincere belief that Jesus had risen, the empty tomb, and the Shroud of Turin.
Can you think of another explanation that explains all three in one fell swoop?

Also, group hallucinations are about as possible as group dreams.

Why include the shroud of Turin? It is most commonly thought to be a fake, with good reasons. Even if it were 2000 years old, (it isn't), had blood on it, (it doesn't), and was wrapped around the body of a man to get those marks, it does not mean that the man was dead.
Already had plenty of possible answers as to how come an empty tomb, and possible belief in his resurrection by contemporary witnesses.
I think this game is over for me, I have seen your desire to have a camera angle that shows the whole pitch during a game of football, but I don't know why, when you refuse to look at the whole picture anyway.