[Misc] Christians seem to be really good people

[kuzushi]

This kind of incredibly reductionist, binary argument is why I think this is a troll. It's obvious that early Christians believed in resurrection,

Yeah, it is.

that doesn't mean it happened and there is a God any more than it necessarily means there was group hallucination.

Well, it's got to be one of the two, hasn't it? I'm not convinced by the alien cyborg theory any more.

You have to look at why they believed that - I believe they were conned into it by the 1st century equivalents of Boris Johnson and Nigel Farage but with more of a moral compass than either of those two.

Oh yeah, that's a good theory.

Resurrection was just about the most convenient thing the early Christians could have possibly come up with to get followers and avoid being wiped out and to continue their revolutionary movement.

Can I ask why they would need to do that? Why wouldn't they just say, oh, Jesus is dead now. I guess we'll just go back to our old lives as fishermen etc. We don't want to end up crucified like Jesus.

It didn't come out of nowhere like "hey, this mad thing has happened! What can it possibly mean?"

In fact, it's so convenient it's almost like the Gospels admit it by being "surprised" about the resurrection.

It matched the contemporary metaphor about the restoration of Israel which was literally a dead person being physically resurrected...so the early followers get the political revolutionaries on side, it explained why he'd failed to fulfil the Messianic promise and enabled the logic of that promise to be changed to fit circumstances so they got the religious followers with them (I bet the followers of Theodas and Dositheos and many of his other contemporaries were kicking themselves they didn't think of it), it fitted the revolutionary religious philosophy of the time too which claimed physical resurrection was possible not just spiritual, and it even gave them a path to making the Pharisees allies against the Sadducees...they had so many reasons to claim resurrection, and if they wanted to go on living as they were very few not to claim it. And yes, many of them didn't live much longer but there's a high chance that would have happened sooner or later simply because of their association with Jesus whether they'd carried on preaching or not.

You think the Jewish religious leaders and Romans would have hunted them down if they'd all just drifted back to their old lives as fishermen in Galilee etc.?
Also your theory doesn't account for the empty tomb and the Shroud of Turin.

 

[kuzushi]

Don't lose faith brother, you will again soon be touched once more.

Nice profile picture

 

[kuzushi]

____________________________Accounts for the empty tomb_____________Explains the provenance of the Shroud of Turin
Kuzushi's resurrection theory_______________________________________________________________________________
Kuzushi's alien cyborg theory_______________________________________________________________________________
Bart Ehrman's GH* theory__________________________________________________________________________________
JRG's 'shade' theory______________________________________________________________________________________
Happy exile's Boris Johnson theory__________________________________________________________________________

 

[BadFish]

____________________________Accounts for the empty tomb_____________Explains the provenance of the Shroud of Turin
Kuzushi's resurrection theory_______________________________________________________________________________
Kuzushi's alien cyborg theory_______________________________________________________________________________
Bart Ehrman's GH* theory__________________________________________________________________________________
JRG's 'shade' theory______________________________________________________________________________________
Happy exile's Boris Johnson theory__________________________________________________________________________

f*** yeah, another table.

Thats what turned me, you'll get another soon.

Tables are holy as f***!

Psalm 23:5

You prepare a table before me in the presence of my enemies;
You have anointed my head with oil;
My cup overflows.

Steve jobs: 36:16
“Then indeed cuz, He enticed you from the mouth of distress,
Instead of it, a broad place with no constraint;
And that which was set on your table was full of phatness bruv

 

[kuzushi]

f*** yeah, another table.

Thats what turned me, you'll get another soon.

Tables are holy as f***!

Yeah, they're good, but notice how some of the entries in the table have green ticks and others have red crosses. That's interesting, isn't it.

 

[BadFish]

Yeah, they're good, but notice how some of the entries in the table have green ticks and others have red crosses. That's interesting, isn't it.

Does the red represent the blood of Christ and the green his crow of thorns?

 

[Insel affe]

Does the red represent the blood of Christ and the green his crow of thorns?

Christ on a unicycle, get a room you two lovebirds.

I am sure there is a Christian forum you two can take this story/faith too ?


You have not won any arguments, people have are just given up conversing with you, because you believe and others don't.

 

[Jolly Red Giant]

You think the Jewish religious leaders and Romans would have hunted them down if they'd all just drifted back to their old lives as fishermen in Galilee etc.?

Absolutely - it was the one way of making sure that the revolutionary movement was cut completely at the knees - every dictator in history has adopted such an approach.

 

[kuzushi]

Does the red represent the blood of Christ and the green his crow of thorns?

Yes

 

[BadFish]

Christ on a unicycle, get a room you two lovebirds.

I am sure there is a Christian forum you two can take this story/faith too ?


You have not won any arguments, people have are just given up conversing with you, because you believe and others don't.

The world is the only room great enough for the love of us and our god.

The door is always open if ever the silence becomes too deafening. (No psychobilly though, it just rocks too darn hard).

Edit: Jesus would have ridden a bicycle not a unicycle for the bicycle wheels would complete the holy trinity.

 

[Sid and the Sharknados]

Christ on a unicycle, get a room you two lovebirds.

I am sure there is a Christian forum you two can take this story/faith too ?


You have not won any arguments, people have are just given up conversing with you, because you believe and others don't.

If I learnt nothing else from Book of Job, it does teach us that God loves a wind up.

 

[Insel affe]

The world is the only room great enough for the love of us and our god.

The door is always open if ever the silence becomes too deafening. (No psychobilly though, it just rocks too darn hard).

Edit: Jesus would have ridden a bicycle not a unicycle for the bicycle wheels would complete the holy trinity.

Do you like guns ?

 

[Sid and the Sharknados]

1. Primarily 19th and 20th century labour history - now - what is your area of historical expertise? Indeed do you claim to have any expertise in any academic field?

Out of interest, given your previous reference to many historians from antiquity being closer to propagandists than historians, would you say that your interpretation of this subject is shaped by your politics?

 

[Jolly Red Giant]

I'm good at this. Two theories that both pass Occam's razor. Looks like Ehrman and JRG need to raise their game.

1. The empty tomb - someone robbed the body (probably the followers of Jesus)
2. The Shroud is a medieval relic - and only exists today because the House of Saxony used it as a 'high prestige relic', beginning in 1453, to shore up its support base among the population of the dukedom - 1453 was the year of the fall of Constantinople which caused political shockwaves throughout Europe (particularly Southern and Central Europe) and had the ruling aristocracies scurrying around the place trying not to go the way of the dodo.

Sometimes the most obvious answer is also the most accurate.

Your attitude reminds me of what an anti-creationist activist Aaron Ra said about his revelation as a Born-Again Christian which ultimately led to him rejecting Christianity (and by the way - you still haven't answered the question - are you a creationist?) - Ra explained that he became a born again Christian after having a revelation - he went to a friend who was a Christian minister and asked him how he would know that the revelation was actually caused by the presence of God - his friend replied 'keep telling yourself it is the presence of God until you truly believe it'.

 

[BadFish]

Do you like guns ?

Guns represent the holy trinity, without each part they are useless.

The metal is god and all around, the gunpowder is the holy spirit in it power and ethereal beauty. The bullets are the son, sent among us to bring love.

 

[Baldseagull]

Yes, he does.

Like you or I standing in the street watching a Granny getting the shit kicked out of her, God stands by and just lets innocents suffer.

You can propose as many possibilities as you like.
How would you account for the fact that the early followers of Jesus went around proclaiming the resurrection of Jesus pretty much immediately after the crucifixion?
It looks like Jolly Red Giant is having ago with some kind of 'shade' theory.

We do not know for certain that they did, we just know that it is written in some of the Gospels.
According to the Gospels you recognise, Jesus was on the cross for 6 hours before he was taken down. Others have survived a crucifixion for longer, and sometimes People appear to be dead when they are not.

Woman who revived and knocked on coffin at her own funeral has now died

Bella Montoya shocked relatives by waking up at her own funeral about a week ago, having been declared dead after a suspected stroke.

www.nbcnews.com

Ringer Edwards - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

"Dead" man wakes up under autopsy knife

A Venezuelan man who had been declared dead woke up in the morgue in excruciating pain after medical examiners began their autopsy.

www.reuters.com

Clairvius Narcisse - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

If Jesus really had been walking about raising people from the dead for a party trick, perhaps he had access to a Zombie type drug that could make a person appear dead, so that he could later administer an antidote and gain the plaudits.

Maybe it never happened and it's just a story.

There are a number of explanations that fit better than God resurrected his corpse,

 

[Insel affe]

Guns represent the holy trinity, without each part they are useless.

The metal is god and all around, the gunpowder is the holy spirit in it power and ethereal beauty. The bullets are the son, sent among us to bring love.

Spoken like a true Christian, I love Jebus too.

Can we go on a drive together in your pick up truck and spread those bullets of Jebus love around the none believers.

 

[BadFish]

Spoken like a true Christian, I love Jebus too.

Can we go on a drive together in your pick up truck and spread those bullets of Jebus love around the none believers.

Just like the apostles did in the days after the resurrection. Then 80 years later they sat down and wrote all about it.

 

[kuzushi]

1. The empty tomb - someone robbed the body (probably the followers of Jesus)

That's pretty ballsy of them, right after the crucifixion of their leader. Wow.

2. The Shroud is a medieval relic - and only exists today because the House of Saxony used it as a 'high prestige relic', beginning in 1453, to shore up its support base among the population of the dukedom - 1453 was the year of the fall of Constantinople which caused political shockwaves throughout Europe (particularly Southern and Central Europe) and had the ruling aristocracies scurrying around the place trying not to go the way of the dodo.

The house of Savoy

Sometimes the most obvious answer is also the most accurate.

There's a lot that could be said about the shroud, which I won't go into right now.
For those unfamiliar with the Shroud and the interesting things thereof, this video isn't a bad watch:

Your attitude reminds me of what an anti-creationist activist Aaron Ra said about his revelation as a Born-Again Christian which ultimately led to him rejecting Christianity (and by the way - you still haven't answered the question - are you a creationist?) -

I believe that God created the universe, but I'm not against the Big Bang and evolution as mechanisms through which it might have been done. That's what the experts seem to be leaning towards. I think I've mentioned penguins already: they're birds, which are normally supposed to be flying, but they live at the South Pole (or thereabouts), and swim in the icy sea. What are they doing there? It seems to me plausible that they might have been originally birds that flew and that adapted to their current way of life. Dolphins and whales are another example. They have lungs and vestigial hip-bones. Looks like they have features that would be suited to life on land, but they live in the sea, so I think it's highly likely that they, or rather their ancestors, used to live on land.

There is also the question of how life began in the first place, which evolution doesn't address.
Richard Dawkins surmises that it must have originated somewhere else and travelled across space to reach this planet.

Ra explained that he became a born again Christian after having a revelation - he went to a friend who was a Christian minister and asked him how he would know that the revelation was actually caused by the presence of God - his friend replied 'keep telling yourself it is the presence of God until you truly believe it'.

 

[Jolly Red Giant]

Out of interest, given your previous reference to many historians from antiquity being closer to propagandists than historians, would you say that your interpretation of this subject is shaped by your politics?

Nope - I am not in any way an expert in antiquity - but I have read a lot of material (including the bible) and I do know the process of research, interpretation and formulation of historical assertions - it is a rigorous and scientific method. Over the course of my few contributions on this thread I have not just spouting the first thing that came into my head - but have actually gone off and read stuff before posting to ensure that I eliminated bias as much as possible and didn't make historical errors. Unfortunately the same can not be said of those who advocate for the existence of a deity, his son and relics like the Shroud. You have to have blind faith for such things - irrespective of the evidence in front of you.

Now - there is nothing wrong with this - everyone is entitled to believe whatever they want - and I will defend the right of every individual to believe in whatever deity they want, to practice whatever religious rituals they want (provided they do not harm or infringe on other living creatures) and support them whenever they are persecuted for their religious beliefs. But the line is drawn when religious fundamentalists attempt to force their world view on wider society - and do so irrespective of the consequences for society. Christianity has been part of the mechanism whereby slavery was an integral part of the establishment and flourishing of capitalism, it has been a method by which imperial powers have subjugated indigenous peoples, it has created a society whereby women have faced centuries of subjugation etc. etc. And these things happened because certain individuals 'believed' they knew the 'absolute truth' (or in a lot of cases were willing to claim they did to gain or keep political and/or economic power).

I am always conscious of the potential of bias in my historical research from my political views and that is why I consciously act to ensure to minimise the potential for it happening in my own historical research (and I actually adopt the same approach to my political views which never remain static and immovable - I constantly change my political views - sometimes very marginally, sometimes significantly, based on new evidence or new developments in society). In historical research I never start with a hypothesis and try to prove it - anyone can fit any evidence into their world view (as we can see with religious fundamentalists). Furthermore, I am constantly changing my analysis of historical events and processes based on the discovery of new evidence - I actually change my mind on stuff every single day when I am engaged in this work. You can never stop learning and you can never have a closed mind to the potential for new evidence changing your viewpoint.