[Misc] Christians seem to be really good people

[Blues Guitarist]

It's no laughing matter, I have realised that Jesus is the only way.

I believe that Deuteronomy 23:1 explains why there are so many non believers on here.

Deuteronomy 23:2 is also interesting. Remind me, was Joseph Jesus's Dad?

 

[Jolly Red Giant]

I wonder how Christianity will evolve over the next few hundred years while still claiming to be the same religion? A few centuries ago you could buy a pardon for your sins. You could even buy a pre-emptive pardon before you'd sinned. You were encouraged to do everything within your power to ensure people who followed the 'wrong' type of Christianity were tortured and burned alive. At the moment the religion can't even decide what it thinks about anyone who isn't heterosexual and there's so much variability in views, much of it hard to distinguish from prejudice and hatred, it makes a mockery of any supposed moral authority.

What happens to all those earnestly doing things now with faith they are doing the will of god if in 100 years the church changes it's mind and decides they were wrong? Are the torturers and those who gave them spiritual permission to commit atrocities in the name of god for Elizabeth, for Mary and countless others, in hell for going so against current Christian teaching or is the right thing whatever people at the top arbitrarily interpret it is in any given moment?

Up to 150 years ago the Catholic Church did not have a problem with abortion up to 20 weeks (the quickening) - the Church only moved against abortion after the Pope created dogma in 1854 that Mary was a virgin and her pregnancy was an immaculate conception. The notion of the immaculate conception caused a civil war of sorts within the Catholic Church over a period of centuries during the Middle Ages (Thomas Aquinas opposed the immaculate conception). The pope declared the immaculate conception dogma as a result of demands from the Habsburg monarchs as part of their strategy to centralise political control under their rule following the revolutionary upheavals of 1848. It took another 20 years for the dogma to be accepted throughout the Catholic Church and was facilitated in Ireland by the banning of abortion by the British parliament in 1861 under the Offences Against the Persons Act - an Act which formed the basis for the ban on abortion in Ireland up to 2019. The same Act was used last week to jail a woman in Stoke for inducing an abortion with abortion pills.

 

[kuzushi]

To establish whether Jesus was real or not I read the New Testament. With so many contradictions it is very clear that Jesus, as described in the bible, did not exist. You don't have to look past his birth. Matthew and Luke contradict each other over the year he was born, exactly where he was born, his genealogy, where the family lived and what happened after the birth. So either Matthew is wrong, or Luke is wrong or they are both wrong - so Jesus didn't exist.

If I'm so obviously wrong, please tell me what is wrong with my evidence and my argument.

The steps I've outlined are not to do with when or where Jesus was born, or his genealogy, or anything else. It hinges on whether the disciples sincerely believed that he rose from the dead. That's it.

Let's say Brighton play a game, and afterwards you ask someone what happened. "Oh it was good. We won 1-nil. One of their players got sent off for a second yellow. It was an amazing goal. Mitoma picked up the ball on the halfway line, dribbled past 3 players and crossed it to Ferguson who took a touch and buried it in the far corner." Then later you meet another friend who was at the game and they say, "Yeah, it was nice, we won. Their centre-half got a straight red. Ferguson scored. Mitoma took it past a couple of players, got to the goal-line and played a low ball across to Ferguson who hit it first time." You would notice a few discrepancies, but you would not for that reason conclude that Ferguson therefore didn't score, or we didn't win 1-0.

Let's suppose Matthew or Luke or both are wrong about some details, so what? It doesn't mean that they are wrong about Jesus rising from the dead.
Now Jesus's teaching is also mind-blowingly amazing. It is really really good. Let's just look at one chapter as an example. Some people have complained about my quoting scripture, so I have tried to quote less, but in this case I think it warrants it since I want to highlight Jesus's teaching:

5 Now when Jesus saw the crowds, he went up on a mountainside and sat down. His disciples came to him, 2 and he began to teach them.

The Beatitudes​

He said:
3 ‘Blessed are the poor in spirit,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
4 Blessed are those who mourn,
for they will be comforted.
5 Blessed are the meek,
for they will inherit the earth.
6 Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
for they will be filled.
7 Blessed are the merciful,
for they will be shown mercy.
8 Blessed are the pure in heart,
for they will see God.
9 Blessed are the peacemakers,
for they will be called children of God.
10 Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
11 ‘Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. 12 Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

Salt and light​

13 ‘You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled underfoot.
14 ‘You are the light of the world. A town built on a hill cannot be hidden. 15 Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. 16 In the same way, let your light shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven.

The fulfilment of the law​

17 ‘Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfil them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practises and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

Murder​

21 ‘You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, “You shall not murder,[a] and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.” 22 But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister[b][c] will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, “Raca,”[d] is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, “You fool!” will be in danger of the fire of hell.
23 ‘Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother or sister has something against you, 24 leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to them; then come and offer your gift.
25 ‘Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court. Do it while you are still together on the way, or your adversary may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison. 26 Truly I tell you, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny.

Adultery​

27 ‘You have heard that it was said, “You shall not commit adultery.”[e] 28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 If your right eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30 And if your right hand causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.

Divorce​

31 ‘It has been said, “Anyone who divorces his wife must give her a certificate of divorce.”[f] 32 But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, makes her the victim of adultery, and anyone who marries a divorced woman commits adultery.

Oaths​

33 ‘Again, you have heard that it was said to the people long ago, “Do not break your oath, but fulfil to the Lord the oaths you have made.” 34 But I tell you, do not swear an oath at all: either by heaven, for it is God’s throne; 35 or by the earth, for it is his footstool; or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the Great King. 36 And do not swear by your head, for you cannot make even one hair white or black. 37 All you need to say is simply “Yes,” or “No”; anything beyond this comes from the evil one.[g]

Eye for eye​

38 ‘You have heard that it was said, “Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.”[h] 39 But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also. 40 And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well. 41 If anyone forces you to go one mile, go with them two miles. 42 Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.

Love for enemies​

43 ‘You have heard that it was said, “Love your neighbour[i] and hate your enemy.” 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

So either he said those things, or else someone made them up and pretended that he said them. But that would be a bit weird, wouldn't it? Some dishonest person writing some very noble moral teaching and attributing it to Jesus. And you've got all the disciples. What are they all doing if Jesus didn't exist? Do you not believe in the disciples, either? Or Polycarp, who was a close friend of the Apostle John. Do you think that Polycarp didn't really exist either, or that he made up that he knew John, or that John lied to Polycarp about knowing Jesus?

 

[Titanic]

... So either he said those things, or else someone made them up and pretended that he said them. But that would be a bit weird, wouldn't it? Some dishonest person writing some very noble moral teaching and attributing it to Jesus. And you've got all the disciples. What are they all doing if Jesus didn't exist? Do you not believe in the disciples, either? Or Polycarp, who was a close friend of the Apostle John. Do you think that Polycarp didn't really exist either, or that he made up that he knew John, or that John lied to Polycarp about knowing Jesus?

I thought Polycarp was a Pokemon.

 

[kuzushi]

I thought Polycarp was a Pokemon.

Don't think so.

Polycarp - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Titanic]

Sorry... I am easily confused.

 

[kuzushi]

Sorry... I am easily confused.

It's important to differentiate:
magikarp = pokemon
Polycarp = early Christian martyr

 

[Baldseagull]

It's important to differentiate:
magikarp = pokemon
Polycarp = early Christian martyr
View attachment 162557

Not that important, unless you collect Pokemom.

 

[Blues Guitarist]

The steps I've outlined are not to do with when or where Jesus was born, or his genealogy, or anything else. It hinges on whether the disciples sincerely believed that he rose from the dead. That's it.

Let's say Brighton play a game, and afterwards you ask someone what happened. "Oh it was good. We won 1-nil. One of their players got sent off for a second yellow. It was an amazing goal. Mitoma picked up the ball on the halfway line, dribbled past 3 players and crossed it to Ferguson who took a touch and buried it in the far corner." Then later you meet another friend who was at the game and they say, "Yeah, it was nice, we won. Their centre-half got a straight red. Ferguson scored. Mitoma took it past a couple of players, got to the goal-line and played a low ball across to Ferguson who hit it first time." You would notice a few discrepancies, but you would not for that reason conclude that Ferguson therefore didn't score, or we didn't win 1-0.

Let's suppose Matthew or Luke or both are wrong about some details, so what? It doesn't mean that they are wrong about Jesus rising from the dead.
Now Jesus's teaching is also mind-blowingly amazing. It is really really good. Let's just look at one chapter as an example. Some people have complained about my quoting scripture, so I have tried to quote less, but in this case I think it warrants it since I want to highlight Jesus's teaching:

5 Now when Jesus saw the crowds, he went up on a mountainside and sat down. His disciples came to him, 2 and he began to teach them.

The Beatitudes​

He said:
3 ‘Blessed are the poor in spirit,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
4 Blessed are those who mourn,
for they will be comforted.
5 Blessed are the meek,
for they will inherit the earth.
6 Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
for they will be filled.
7 Blessed are the merciful,
for they will be shown mercy.
8 Blessed are the pure in heart,
for they will see God.
9 Blessed are the peacemakers,
for they will be called children of God.
10 Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
11 ‘Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. 12 Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

Salt and light​

13 ‘You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled underfoot.
14 ‘You are the light of the world. A town built on a hill cannot be hidden. 15 Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. 16 In the same way, let your light shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven.

The fulfilment of the law​

17 ‘Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfil them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practises and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

Murder​

21 ‘You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, “You shall not murder,[a] and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.” 22 But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister[b][c] will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, “Raca,”[d] is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, “You fool!” will be in danger of the fire of hell.
23 ‘Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother or sister has something against you, 24 leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to them; then come and offer your gift.
25 ‘Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court. Do it while you are still together on the way, or your adversary may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison. 26 Truly I tell you, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny.

Adultery​

27 ‘You have heard that it was said, “You shall not commit adultery.”[e] 28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 If your right eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30 And if your right hand causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.

Divorce​

31 ‘It has been said, “Anyone who divorces his wife must give her a certificate of divorce.”[f] 32 But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, makes her the victim of adultery, and anyone who marries a divorced woman commits adultery.

Oaths​

33 ‘Again, you have heard that it was said to the people long ago, “Do not break your oath, but fulfil to the Lord the oaths you have made.” 34 But I tell you, do not swear an oath at all: either by heaven, for it is God’s throne; 35 or by the earth, for it is his footstool; or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the Great King. 36 And do not swear by your head, for you cannot make even one hair white or black. 37 All you need to say is simply “Yes,” or “No”; anything beyond this comes from the evil one.[g]

Eye for eye​

38 ‘You have heard that it was said, “Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.”[h] 39 But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also. 40 And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well. 41 If anyone forces you to go one mile, go with them two miles. 42 Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.

Love for enemies​

43 ‘You have heard that it was said, “Love your neighbour[i] and hate your enemy.” 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

So either he said those things, or else someone made them up and pretended that he said them. But that would be a bit weird, wouldn't it? Some dishonest person writing some very noble moral teaching and attributing it to Jesus. And you've got all the disciples. What are they all doing if Jesus didn't exist? Do you not believe in the disciples, either? Or Polycarp, who was a close friend of the Apostle John. Do you think that Polycarp didn't really exist either, or that he made up that he knew John, or that John lied to Polycarp about knowing Jesus?

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and ask again. If I am wrong, please explain why my evidence is not valid, or what is wrong with my argument?

 

[The Clamp]

I don’t believe Jesus existed as an historical figure.

Most belief systems, be they pagan or religious, have a “saviour / resurrection” story. They vary in detail but in broad strokes, they all have their “Jesus figure”.

It would be rather arrogant to take the stance that “they all have their versions but we have the real one”. Especially as many of these belief systems pre-date Christianity by some time.

Again, I may be wrong. I won’t be killing anyone over it.

 

[beorhthelm]

The steps I've outlined are not to do with when or where Jesus was born, or his genealogy, or anything else. It hinges on whether the disciples sincerely believed that he rose from the dead. That's it.

Let's say Brighton play a game, and afterwards you ask someone what happened. "Oh it was good. We won 1-nil. One of their players got sent off for a second yellow. It was an amazing goal. Mitoma picked up the ball on the halfway line, dribbled past 3 players and crossed it to Ferguson who took a touch and buried it in the far corner." Then later you meet another friend who was at the game and they say, "Yeah, it was nice, we won. Their centre-half got a straight red. Ferguson scored. Mitoma took it past a couple of players, got to the goal-line and played a low ball across to Ferguson who hit it first time." You would notice a few discrepancies, but you would not for that reason conclude that Ferguson therefore didn't score, or we didn't win 1-0.

Let's suppose Matthew or Luke or both are wrong about some details, so what? It doesn't mean that they are wrong about Jesus rising from the dead.
Now Jesus's teaching is also mind-blowingly amazing. It is really really good. Let's just look at one chapter as an example. Some people have complained about my quoting scripture, so I have tried to quote less, but in this case I think it warrants it since I want to highlight Jesus's teaching:
.

using your analogy, its as if we won the league in 2021/22 and no one recorded a single result of any game or a report for the season. then 40 years later, someone writes up how great the season was, we were unbeaten all season, Ferguson scored 50 goals, Mitoma scored 30 and Zamora another 20 as player manager.
its not about the discrepencies, its all entirely unverifiable.

oh and the bit about divorce - so a women cant be independent and cant remarry, while men dont have any such constraint? what sort of arsehole that came up with that.

 

[Doonhamer7]

Flipped in and out of this ‘debate’ I don’t know all the facts and can’t be bothered to check them out, but a few facts that were pointed out to me

the bible was written 300 years after the event in different languages - so there must be huge misinterpretations, manipulations and ‘politics‘ in play in its writing
the Catholic Church did a great method of rolling in all the pagan religious items into this Christian faith for example the image of god of white robes and big beard = Zeus, Xmas day is the same day as the pagan mid winter festival (Coptic church has different Xmas day) etc so this is an easy sell to the uneducated across Europe over 1000years ago
if you read workings of Confucius he has a similar moral code / philosophy to but just no supreme being, so is the bible just a very good morale code?

But if any religion gives people something of value in their life, what right have I to intervene as life is hard enough

 

[Baldseagull]

The steps I've outlined are not to do with when or where Jesus was born, or his genealogy, or anything else. It hinges on whether the disciples sincerely believed that he rose from the dead. That's it.

Yes, but we are not interested in your steps, you are like a shit Double Glazing Salesman, that has been trained to get the prospect to say "yes" 3 times in a row and then they will say "yes" when you put the clincher in front of them.

So either he said those things, or else someone made them up and pretended that he said them. But that would be a bit weird, wouldn't it? Some dishonest person writing some very noble moral teaching and attributing it to Jesus. And you've got all the disciples. What are they all doing if Jesus didn't exist? Do you not believe in the disciples, either? Or Polycarp, who was a close friend of the Apostle John. Do you think that Polycarp didn't really exist either, or that he made up that he knew John, or that John lied to Polycarp about knowing Jesus?

Not at all, fiction writers put words in the mouths of their characters all the time, it is not as if these ideas Jesus has are completely original.

 

[kuzushi]

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and ask again. If I am wrong, please explain why my evidence is not valid, or what is wrong with my argument?

What you cite as evidence is discrepancies that you see between the gospels. I am not saying that your evidence is not valid. However, I am saying that you cannot therefore conclude that Jesus didn't exist, because it is possible for there to be discrepancies but for Jesus still to exist.

This is what you said:
"To establish whether Jesus was real or not I read the New Testament. With so many contradictions it is very clear that Jesus, as described in the bible, did not exist. You don't have to look past his birth. Matthew and Luke contradict each other over the year he was born, exactly where he was born, his genealogy, where the family lived and what happened after the birth. So either Matthew is wrong, or Luke is wrong or they are both wrong - so Jesus didn't exist."


Do you accept that Paul existed, and that he met Peter on a couple of occasions?

 

[kuzushi]

Flipped in and out of this ‘debate’ I don’t know all the facts and can’t be bothered to check them out, but a few facts that were pointed out to me

the bible was written 300 years after the event in different languages - so there must be huge misinterpretations, manipulations and ‘politics‘ in play in its writing
the Catholic Church did a great method of rolling in all the pagan religious items into this Christian faith for example the image of god of white robes and big beard = Zeus, Xmas day is the same day as the pagan mid winter festival (Coptic church has different Xmas day) etc so this is an easy sell to the uneducated across Europe over 1000years ago
if you read workings of Confucius he has a similar moral code / philosophy to but just no supreme being, so is the bible just a very good morale code?

But if any religion gives people something of value in their life, what right have I to intervene as life is hard enough

You've got that a bit wrong. The gospels were all completed by the year 90AD. Not 300 years after.
Paul's first letter to the Corinthians was written around the year 53AD.

New Testament - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Blues Guitarist]

What you cite as evidence is discrepancies that you see between the gospels. I am not saying that your evidence is not valid. However, I am saying that you cannot therefore conclude that Jesus didn't exist, because it is possible for there to be discrepancies but for Jesus still to exist.

This is what you said:
"To establish whether Jesus was real or not I read the New Testament. With so many contradictions it is very clear that Jesus, as described in the bible, did not exist. You don't have to look past his birth. Matthew and Luke contradict each other over the year he was born, exactly where he was born, his genealogy, where the family lived and what happened after the birth. So either Matthew is wrong, or Luke is wrong or they are both wrong - so Jesus didn't exist."


Do you accept that Paul existed, and that he met Peter on a couple of occasions?

But I can conclude that Matthew is false, or Luke is false. So which is it?

 

[Baldseagull]

What you cite as evidence is discrepancies that you see between the gospels. I am not saying that your evidence is not valid. However, I am saying that you cannot therefore conclude that Jesus didn't exist, because it is possible for there to be discrepancies but for Jesus still to exist.

This is what you said:
"To establish whether Jesus was real or not I read the New Testament. With so many contradictions it is very clear that Jesus, as described in the bible, did not exist. You don't have to look past his birth. Matthew and Luke contradict each other over the year he was born, exactly where he was born, his genealogy, where the family lived and what happened after the birth. So either Matthew is wrong, or Luke is wrong or they are both wrong - so Jesus didn't exist."


Do you accept that Paul existed, and that he met Peter on a couple of occasions?

Strange what some people conclude isn't it?

 

[Blues Guitarist]

Strange what some people conclude isn't it?

Some people seem to be better at asking questions than answering them.

 

[kuzushi]

But I can conclude that Matthew is false, or Luke is false. So which is it?

Perhaps there are inaccuracies in both of them, especially regarding details pertaining to the early life of Jesus, from a time when there were probably few if any witnesses left, but it doesn't mean the later life of Jesus is wrong, when he had all his disciples and followers, which is the part that is of most significance, especially right at the end.

How I view the Bible is that it is written by men who tell us what happened as they saw it. So Luke says he went and investigated everything thoroughly, and I daresay he did, but how did he do it? He probably interviewed a lot of people. The early part of Jesus's life is liable to be a bit sketchy, and the years from 12 to 30 seem to be a complete mystery, but the later part, when he had his public ministry, is going to be much better attested.

It's worth bearing in mind that the New Testament is just one part of the evidence. There is also the existence of the church, the fact of the empty tomb, and the existence of the Shroud of Turin and the Sudarium of Oviedo. The Shroud ended up in Turin while the Sudarium made its way along the coast of north Africa and up into Spain, reaching Toledo in the year 657AD. The latter two have over 100 points of coincidence. Usually just 40 are enough for facial recognition purposes to give a positive ID, so it strongly suggests that the Shroud and the Sudarium are of the same person. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudarium_of_Oviedo#Background_and_history

Ehrman's group hallucination theory doesn't explain why the tomb was empty, or the existence of the Shroud and the Sudarium.
The resurrection is a better Occam's razor candidate than Ehrman's group hallucination theory.

 

[Blues Guitarist]

What you cite as evidence is discrepancies that you see between the gospels. I am not saying that your evidence is not valid. However, I am saying that you cannot therefore conclude that Jesus didn't exist, because it is possible for there to be discrepancies but for Jesus still to exist.

This is what you said:
"To establish whether Jesus was real or not I read the New Testament. With so many contradictions it is very clear that Jesus, as described in the bible, did not exist. You don't have to look past his birth. Matthew and Luke contradict each other over the year he was born, exactly where he was born, his genealogy, where the family lived and what happened after the birth. So either Matthew is wrong, or Luke is wrong or they are both wrong - so Jesus didn't exist."


Do you accept that Paul existed, and that he met Peter on a couple of occasions?

You’re very good at this ruse. You’ve lost the argument, so you try to switch the debate. Stop it. Complete the point that is being discussed. In this case, you do accept my evidence, so why is my conclusion wrong? Please explain. Are you a Christian arguing your corner badly, or are you a troll?