[Misc] Christians seem to be really good people

[Commander]

From wikipedia: "The only two events subject to "almost universal assent" are that Jesus was baptized by John the Baptist and was crucified by order of the Roman Prefect Pontius Pilate." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus#Baptism_and_crucifixion


Can I ask how you know he'd conclude that they lied or were persuaded? Are you sure you are not making an unsupported statement?

What do you think about other planets / galaxies / extra-terrestrial life etc? How does that fit in with what the Bible says?

Genuine question by the way, I've often wondered this.

 

[Muzzman]

Right. Not reading this whole thread, because religion is obviously a load of old bollocks.

Wipe everyone's memory, remove every single piece of religious and science texts in the world and in a couple of millennium, you'll have a completely different set of books regarding religion, but the science texts will be exactly the same. Religion is completely subjective, science is objective, and for this reason, I fall on the side of science every single time, and it boggles the mind why people put faith in a Father Christmas in the sky.

 

[kuzushi]

Please take me out of your stupid table, I am not an experiment or part of any project of yours.
I would never have replied to any of your posts if I had known.
You don’t listen, and have an agenda which I’m not sure of.

You epitomise everything I despise about Christianity and other religions.

Yes, remove me.
I do not believe in jesus as a historical religious leader, rather a leader of a cult.
I do not believe in Christianity, it is a contrived religion based on past religions to suit the day and powers that be at the time.

Please remove me.

Hey calm down!
OK, I'll remove you.
You seem to be freaking out.

 

[Triggaaar]

From wikipedia: "The only two events subject to "almost universal assent" are that Jesus was baptized by John the Baptist and was crucified by order of the Roman Prefect Pontius Pilate." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus#Baptism_and_crucifixion

They are generally accepted, but that does not make them fact.

Can I ask how you know he'd conclude that they lied or were persuaded?

Because he's not going to have pinned everything he believes in on one hunch that it was a group hallucination. All the evidence he has seen makes it obvious to him that Jesus did not rise from the dead. He's then looked at the possible reasons that the disciples said he did: did they get high and chant and later think it really happened? did they simply lie? did one of them (maybe Peter) conivince the others?

He's decided with the hallucination idea, but if that's not true, he'd go with one of the others.

Are you sure you are not making an unsupported statement?

That is quite increadible coming from you. Unsupported statements has become your speciality.

Now I have to go to work.

 

[kuzushi]

Now I have to go to work.

Have a nice time at work.

 

[Triggaaar]

Of course I know what a fact is. Don't try to be patronising.

If you do, then stop claiming your opinions are facts, because they are not.

Virtually all scholars of antiquity agree that a historical human Jesus existed.[1][7][8] Historian Michael Grant asserts that if conventional standards of historical textual criticism are applied to the New Testament, "we can no more reject Jesus' existence than we can reject the existence of a mass of pagan personages whose reality as historical figures is never questioned."[9]

Get it? Virtually all scholars of antiquity. Not Bible scholars. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus#Historical_existence

Yes, that's about the notion that Jesus existed. My post that you've just quoted was clearly about your 3rd point, not 1st. Regarding the first point, it's virtually all, not all. There is a difference. Why do some think he didn't even exist?

But you were claiming that it's a fact that the disciples all believed he rose from the dead - and then you quote something about him merely exisitng.

And why won't you talk about Thomas?

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

Plenty of people assumed dead have ended up being alive.

None of them were a resurrection.

"A 91-year-old woman from Poland was declared dead by a medical examiner and spent 11 hours in cold storage before attendants noticed her bag was moving. They quickly unzipped and released the woman, who told them she “felt normal, fine” and went home to warm herself up with pancakes and soup."

I wonder if Jeebus also had pancakes and soup.

 

[kuzushi]

They are generally accepted, but that does not make them fact.

What would be enough for you to accept something as fact?
If something is almost universally accepted as true by experts, that's not enough for you?

That is quite increadible coming from you. Unsupported statements has become your speciality.

Give me an example of an unsupported statement that I have made.

 

[Deportivo Seagull]

No, I am convinced. It's not just the arguments, it's things that have been happening in my life.
Do you not know why it matters to me if you disagree with me? It's because I am so convinced, and therefore am concerned about the consequences for you.



Your comment here makes me wonder whether you've been following this thread. The very existence of the Church demonstrates that some very driven, passionate and convinced people set the whole thing up in the face of intense persecution. This is regardless of anything in the Bible.

We've also discussed the Shroud of Turin, the most studied object of any kind in all of history. Again, this is not the Bible.

I have no worries regards consequences because there is no a God. If you wish to believe in ‘God’ then fill your boots But keep me out of it.

Very driven and passionate people is not necessarily a good thing especially considering the countless wars carried out in Gods name. You only have to look at Trump and the Christen right to see where passion and religion get you.

We’ve already covered the shroud, the fact it was successfully replicated and it isnt close to being proof.

The clue here is the comment you made regards ‘things that have been happening in my life’. Religion appears to be a ‘crutch’ to get you through life, which if it works and makes you happy then all the power to you. However to believe it is a ‘crutch’ the everyone else must have is definitely not fine.

 

[kuzushi]

If you do, then stop claiming your opinions are facts, because they are not.

I've said that my opinions are my opinions.

And why won't you talk about Thomas?

I have talked about Thomas a number of times in this thread. 5 times, apparently. Here are a couple:

There's also the fact Communion is present in all the main branches of Christianity: Orthodox, Roman Catholic, Protestant, Ethiopian Orthodox.

Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

It would be interesting to know what the practice was with the St Thomas Christians of Kerala in the South of India:
According to tradition, Thomas the Apostle came to Muziris on the Kerala coast in AD 52 which is in present-day Pattanam, Kerala.
The Cochin Jews are known to have existed in Kerala in the 1st century AD, and it was possible for an Aramaic-speaking Jew, such as St. Thomas from Galilee, to make a trip to Kerala then.

Saint Thomas Christians - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I broadly agree with what you say here. Regarding the disciples dying as martyrs, I don't know for sure about all of them, but I'm pretty sure Peter and Andrew did. Paul, although not one of the original twelve, was probably martyred in Rome. Thomas is said to have been killed in the south of India (Christianity has been there for well over a thousand years, said to have been brought there by him in the first century). And of course there were many others, too, such as Polycarp, who was a close friend of the apostle John, who were killed for their insistence that Jesus had risen from the dead. Like you say, these people obviously took their claims seriously if they were prepared to die for them. A clear case of putting your money where your mouth is.

 

[Insel affe]

Hey calm down!
OK, I'll remove you.
You seem to be freaking out.

I am not freaking out, rather stating my beliefs and wishes.
Typical over zealous Christian, resorting to accusing others who do not believe (which is my prerogative) as freaking out, or not understanding what your points of view are are.

I fully understand, but choose not to believe as there is no proof, there is a greater chance of aliens than god.

Christians and other faiths confusing alien visitors with prophets and gods is far more likely.

 

[DavidinSouthampton]

Updated table

i‘m not sure what the table indicates.
If I am CaptainDaveUK and one of the 1, 2, 3, or 4 indicates that I am included as someone who accepts the resurrection as a proven fact, I do not.

That’s where Faith comes in, and it is also something about which I have doubts.

 

[kuzushi]

I have no worries regards consequences because there is no a God. If you wish to believe in ‘God’ then fill your boots But keep me out of it.

You don't know that there isn't a God.

Very driven and passionate people is not necessarily a good thing especially considering the countless wars carried out in Gods name. You only have to look at Trump and the Christen right to see where passion and religion get you.

We’ve already covered the shroud, the fact it was successfully replicated and it isnt close to being proof.

It has not been successfully replicated. The attempt at replicating it was laughable. No 3D information encoded into it, either.

The clue here is the comment you made regards ‘things that have been happening in my life’. Religion appears to be a ‘crutch’ to get you through life, which if it works and makes you happy then all the power to you. However to believe it is a ‘crutch’ the everyone else must have is definitely not fine.

I'll agree it does give me a great boost in life. I love it. It says in one of the passages, "Rejoice in the Lord always!"
Why can I not believe that it is something that everyone needs?
I'm not going to push it on anyone against their will, but I can talk to people about it.

 

[kuzushi]

I am not freaking out, rather stating my beliefs and wishes.

OK.

Typical over zealous Christian, resorting to accusing others who do not believe (which is my prerogative) as freaking out, or not understanding what your points of view are are.

This is typical stereotyping, labelling, othering.
The way I responded to what I perceived as your freaking out has nothing to do with me being a Christian, it's just how it struck me, with you using words such as "stupid" and "despise", which I thought were unnecessary, and I expressed it.

I fully understand, but choose not to believe as there is no proof, there is a greater chance of aliens than god.

Christians and other faiths confused alien visitors with prophets and gods is far more likely.

I don't agree, but it's a theory.

 

[Insel affe]

This is typical stereotyping, labelling, othering.

So it ok for you, to label non believers as heretics and damned to hell ?

The way I responded to what I perceived as your freaking out has nothing to do with me being a Christian.

Yes it does, and you know it.

 

[Happy Exile]

Returning to this thread after a gap is...well...erm...fascinating. I can't decide if what we're witnessing here is epically successful trolling or someone utterly blind to the immense levels of confirmation bias they are demonstrating.

Anyway @The Clamp - I couldn't re-find your post about life force but found it interesting, and it put me in mind of this article - no direct link, but just the idea of life on earth and consciousness being far more than we necessarily give credit for https://www.theguardian.com/environ...ts-this-is-extremely-fascinating-tree-stories

 

[kuzushi]

So it ok for you, to label non believers as heretics and damned to hell ?

I believe in the death and resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth, and that they happened for a reason.

Yes it does, and you know it.

How?

 

[Insel affe]

I believe in the death and resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth, and that they happened for a reason.

Good for you, you must be so happy.

 

[Deportivo Seagull]

You don't know that there isn't a God.


It has not been successfully replicated. The attempt at replicating it was laughable. No 3D information encoded into it, either.

View attachment 162492


I'll agree it does give me a great boost in life. I love it. It says in one of the passages, "Rejoice in the Lord always!"
Why can I not believe that it is something that everyone needs?
I'm not going to push it on anyone against their will, but I can talk to people about it.

That does not back up your argument at all. Do not get ever get a role in in a STEM driven industry, it will not end well.

You are pushing it.

I can’t help but think how Scientology has kicked off and wonder whether there were similarities to how Christianity started…..

 

[Commander]

OK.


This is typical stereotyping, labelling, othering.
The way I responded to what I perceived as your freaking out has nothing to do with me being a Christian, it's just how it struck me, with you using words such as "stupid" and "despise", which I thought were unnecessary, and I expressed it.




I don't agree, but it's a theory.

What do you think about other planets / galaxies / extra-terrestrial life etc? How does that fit in with what the Bible says?

Genuine question by the way, I've often wondered this.