The Jewish leaders wanted Jesus dead and to stay dead. They were there at the crucifixion and watched Roman soldiers pierce his side to check he was dead. They were expert executioners and broke the legs of people so they couldn’t push their bodies up the cross to breathe. After they killed Jesus they put him in a tomb, sealed it and the Jewish leaders requested that Roman soldiers were posted to guard the tomb, because they didn’t want the disciples to steal the body and claim Jesus had rose from the dead. They were the only ones that would have anything to gain by faking his resurrection, so it seems unbelievable that all but one of the disciples (John) died a martyrs death for something that they knew was a lie, unless of course they were completely convinced it was true.
I broadly agree with what you say here. Regarding the disciples dying as martyrs, I don't know for sure about all of them, but I'm pretty sure Peter and Andrew did. Paul, although not one of the original twelve, was probably martyred in Rome. Thomas is said to have been killed in the south of India (Christianity has been there for well over a thousand years, said to have been brought there by him in the first century). And of course there were many others, too, such as Polycarp, who was a close friend of the apostle John, who were killed for their insistence that Jesus had risen from the dead. Like you say, these people obviously took their claims seriously if they were prepared to die for them. A clear case of putting your money where your mouth is.
The Question is: Did Thomas go to heaven?
He was a follower of Jesus. Although initially doubtful when first told about it, he subsequently believed in the resurrection.
If I did what you've just done you would complain that I was saying something that I had no proof for.
I think he was making a bit of a joke.
Stop telling me what I think and pretending that I support your beliefs. You don’t know what I think, and your yes/no poll is an insult to people who do serious historical research.
I'm on the verge of running down to my local Methodist church and signing on.
Can you have another go remembering that I don't count the bible as a decent source of information?
If you had read the bible you would know that no one has gone to heaven. The dead are all rotting in their graves - until Jesus returns, which he hasn’t done. So what Triggaaar said is 100% correct, and your response is dumb.
I'm posting them so that you can see the relevant passages easily. That's where the charge of blasphemy is. The bit he says about the Son of Man coming in the clouds is a reference to Daniel chapter 7, which is why what he said was considered blasphemy. Outside of the Bible there might be references to the charges in the Jewish Talmud, but I'm not sure. I'd have to look into that.
So outside of the bible we don't really have any evidence?
Well, we're discussing the resurrection specifically here, not eschatology or anything else. I didn't say anyone was or wasn't currently in heaven, I just said that Triggaaar had asserted as absolute fact something that he doesn't know. The bit where you say "So what Triggaar said is 100% correct" sounds like you are agreeing with him based on scripture, which is ironic.
Resorting to abuse. Have you noticed that I don't do that?
Does the bible sat that souls are only going to heaven once Jesus returns? I didn't know that, that's interesting.
