[Misc] Christians seem to be really good people

[kuzushi]

Not really, I'm not trying to convince anybody of anything.
Is there a reason the radiocarbon tests haven't been redone on different samples?
I also noticed that the abstract from the x-ray study said that the sample used was from the same area as was used in the 1988 radiocarbon test.

The Shroud is a huge topic in its own right. Apparently it is the most scientifically researched object in history.
If it were a fake, then it would have had to have been done by some absolute genius who was able to make it a photographic negative and encode 3D information into the image hundreds of years before the technology would be invented to enable people to see it. Can anyone suggest how or even why the forger would do this?

 

[Sid and the Sharknados]

The Shroud is a huge topic in its own right. Apparently it is the most scientifically researched object in history.
If it were a fake, then it would have had to have been done by some absolute genius who was able to make it a photographic negative and encode 3D information into the image hundreds of years before the technology would be invented to enable people to see it. Can anyone suggest how or even why the forger would do this?

That's a complete non-sequitor from the question you're responding to.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

The section of the Shroud that they tested was probably a repair patch. The Shroud was damaged in a fire, and repaired by Poor Clare nuns. According to Ray Rogers, who was the director of the research team that carried out the radiocarbon dating test, they did the test on a piece of cloth that had been inserted into the Shroud. At first he was angry when people made this assertion, but when he looked into it, he realised that they were right.

I know. I was watching a review of our season last year and all I saw was Everton tonking us at the Amex.

When was our relegation confirmed? April, or as early as March?

 

[kuzushi]

That's a complete non-sequitor from the question you're responding to.

Sorry, you're right.
You ask whether there's a reason why the tests haven't been redone on different samples.
The Vatican is extremely conservative about letting scientists poke around at the Shroud. They don't want loads of people cutting holes all over it. The STRUP tests in the late 70's were unprecedented.

 

[Sid and the Sharknados]

I know. I was watching a review of our season last year and all I saw was Everton tonking us at the Amex.

When was our relegation confirmed? April, or as early as March?

Wait, I saw us thrashing Everton at Goodison.
I had extrapolated that we processed serenely to winning the league and Everton have been relegated.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

That's a complete non-sequitor from the question you're responding to.

I has an interesting chat with a religionist some 20 years ago.

I say interesting.

He said he believed the literal truth of the bible.

The chat meandered into the scientific method, you know, raise a hypothesis, test it to destruction, and after numerous attempts if the hypothesis continues to accurately predict outcomes in a range of different scenarios, well let's call it a theorem.

Eventually a theorem my be disproven but this is normally a paradigm shift. As long as the theorem works, then it may indeed be a law. The law of gravity, for example. It accurately predicts what will happen if you drop something. Every time.

Back to our chum. "Ah", he said. "The scientific method is simply your belief system".

"It isn't a belief system" I say. It is a rubric that examines beliefs and tests them for their ability to pridict outcomes based on logic".

"No, just a belief system" he says. "You think gravity is a law only because you believe it to be the case".















I am quite proud that I didn't punch him hard in the face and declare "I believe that didn't hurt, and who are you to contradict me?"

 

[Sid and the Sharknados]

Sorry, you're right.
You ask whether there's a reason why the tests haven't been redone on different samples.
The Vatican is extremely conservative about letting scientists poke around at the Shroud. They don't want loads of people cutting holes all over it. The STRUP tests in the late 70's were unprecedented.

Thank you for your reply.

 

[Deportivo Seagull]

Were they able to encode 3D information into the image like with the Shroud?

yes. It looked exactly the same as the shroud.

 

[Sid and the Sharknados]

I has an interesting chat with a religionist some 20 years ago.

I say interesting.

He said he believed the literal truth of the bible.

The chat meandered into the scientific method, you know, raise a hypothesis, test it to destruction, and after numerous attempts if the hypothesis continues to accurately predict outcomes in a range of different scenarios, well let's call it a theorem.

Eventually a theorem my be disproven but this is normally a paradigm shift. As long as the theorem works, then it may indeed be a law. The law of gravity, for example. It accurately predicts what will happen if you drop something. Every time.

Back to our chum. "Ah", he said. "The scientific method is simply your belief system".

"It isn't a belief system" I say. It is a rubric that examines beliefs and tests them for their ability to pridict outcomes based on logic".

"No, just a belief system" he says. "You think gravity is a law only because you believe it to be the case".















I am quite proud that I didn't punch him hard in the face and declare "I believe that didn't hurt, and who are you to contradict me?"

I genuinely don't know where all the posters on this thread have met all these religious types.
I've met plenty of active Christians and Muslims and Hindus etc. I spent a year at uni living with some people who'd met through the Christian Union or whatever it was called.
None of them ever felt the need to try and convert me, found any problem reconciling their beliefs with science or came across as anything other than entirely lovely.
In fact, none of them have ever been nearly as annoying as the atheist politics obsessives who are convinced the answer lies in Marx, Corbyn, Putin or whoever.
Anyway. Whatever

 

[BadFish]

I genuinely don't know where all the posters on this thread have met all these religious types.
I've met plenty of active Christians and Muslims and Hindus etc. I spent a year at uni living with some people who'd met through the Christian Union or whatever it was called.
None of them ever felt the need to try and convert me, found any problem reconciling their beliefs with science or came across as anything other than entirely lovely.
In fact, none of them have ever been nearly as annoying as the atheist politics obsessives who are convinced the answer lies in Marx, Corbyn, Putin or whoever.
Anyway. Whatever

My mother in law is a creationist and has massive book shelves of books proving her stance and question carbon dating and other science. Aside from a quick conversation to ask he not to argue with my autistic son about the existence of dinosaurs we have never really spoken about it.

We accept her beliefs and she accepts mine.

A quick story, when my parents were over one Easter just before our wedding she decided to put nails on the lunch table to remind us all of why we were there.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

I genuinely don't know where all the posters on this thread have met all these religious types.
I've met plenty of active Christians and Muslims and Hindus etc. I spent a year at uni living with some people who'd met through the Christian Union or whatever it was called.
None of them ever felt the need to try and convert me, found any problem reconciling their beliefs with science or came across as anything other than entirely lovely.
In fact, none of them have ever been nearly as annoying as the atheist politics obsessives who are convinced the answer lies in Marx, Corbyn, Putin or whoever.
Anyway. Whatever

The conversation I recounted was with a bearded scientists at the Western Pharmacology Society meeting around 20 years ago. That's Western north America. That includes a goodly smattering of bible belt 'scientists'.

The people I hang out with are all cool. The people I run across are mostly cool. But some are nobs. I try to put as many of them on ignore as quickly as I can, but sometimes you get, you know, caught up in the moment

 

[kuzushi]

yes. It looked exactly the same as the shroud.

That's very interesting.
Do you have a link?

 

[pastafarian]

A quick story, when my parents were over one Easter just before our wedding she decided to put nails on the lunch table to remind us all of why we were there.

To fix the dining table?

 

[Baldseagull]

My mother in law is a creationist and has massive book shelves of books proving her stance and question carbon dating and other science. Aside from a quick conversation to ask he not to argue with my autistic son about the existence of dinosaurs we have never really spoken about it.

We accept her beliefs and she accepts mine.

A quick story, when my parents were over one Easter just before our wedding she decided to put nails on the lunch table to remind us all of why we were there.

Some say God put the Dinosaur fossils in the ground to test their faith, I think he may have put some of those people here to test my patience.

 

[BadFish]

To fix the dining table?

It did need fixing, but sadly no.

 

[Baldseagull]

Even without the Bible we can piece together the fact that Jesus lived, was crucified, and his disciples believed that he rose from the dead.

We can say it is likely, even highly likely that he lived, but it is not evidence of any divinity.

 

[BadFish]

We can say it is likely, even highly likely that he lived, but it is not evidence of any divinity.

Or that to not believe he is Devine will lead to damnation for eternity.

As I said earlier all this takes faith.

 

[Stato]

Christopher Hitchens makes a convincing argument that the historicity of Jesus of Nazareth is actually supported by the necessity for those who proposed that he was the messiah of whose coming was foretold to make up lies that adapt known facts about his biography to the expectations of the prophecies. If the man hadn't existed at all, the stories could just have made him Jesus of Bethlehem.



The Turin Shroud is an obvious fake that not even the modern Vatican has advertised much faith in. It has a perfect front view and back view of a man in 2D. A shroud that had been wrapped around a three dimensional body wouldn't have left such an impression. He wasn't Flat Stanley of Nazareth. Supposed scientific research into it is one of many examples of the religious, who claim to be about faith and not concerned with science and reason, trying to have their cake and eat it. If you accept scientific method, you cannot use the get out of jail free card provided by the metaphysical to explain away results that don't support your hypothesis . If you want miracles, you are rejecting the scientific method and any scientific research you do is completely meaningless.

 

[Commander]

There is no religion like Christianity. No other religion that was prophesied about coming for thousands of years before it arrived.
I've posted this already, and some people apparently don't like too many Bible quotations, but who do you think it's talking about?

My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
Why are you so far from saving me,
so far from my cries of anguish?
2 My God, I cry out by day, but you do not answer,
by night, but I find no rest.[b]
3 Yet you are enthroned as the Holy One;
you are the one Israel praises.[c]
4 In you our ancestors put their trust;
they trusted and you delivered them.
5 To you they cried out and were saved;
in you they trusted and were not put to shame.
6 But I am a worm and not a man,
scorned by everyone, despised by the people.
7 All who see me mock me;
they hurl insults, shaking their heads.
8 ‘He trusts in the Lord,’ they say,
‘let the Lord rescue him.
Let him deliver him,
since he delights in him.’
9 Yet you brought me out of the womb;
you made me trust in you, even at my mother’s breast.
10 From birth I was cast on you;
from my mother’s womb you have been my God.
11 Do not be far from me,
for trouble is near
and there is no one to help.
12 Many bulls surround me;
strong bulls of Bashan encircle me.
13 Roaring lions that tear their prey
open their mouths wide against me.
14 I am poured out like water,
and all my bones are out of joint.
My heart has turned to wax;
it has melted within me.
15 My mouth[d] is dried up like a potsherd,
and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth;
you lay me in the dust of death.
16 Dogs surround me,
a pack of villains encircles me;
they pierce my hands and my feet.
17 All my bones are on display;
people stare and gloat over me.
18 They divide my clothes among them
and cast lots for my garment.
19 But you, Lord, do not be far from me.
You are my strength; come quickly to help me.
20 Deliver me from the sword,
my precious life from the power of the dogs.
21 Rescue me from the mouth of the lions;
save me from the horns of the wild oxen.
22 I will declare your name to my people;
in the assembly I will praise you.
23 You who fear the Lord, praise him!
All you descendants of Jacob, honour him!
Revere him, all you descendants of Israel!
24 For he has not despised or scorned
the suffering of the afflicted one;
he has not hidden his face from him
but has listened to his cry for help.
25 From you comes the theme of my praise in the great assembly;
before those who fear you I will fulfil my vows.
26 The poor will eat and be satisfied;
those who seek the Lord will praise him –
may your hearts live for ever!
27 All the ends of the earth
will remember and turn to the Lord,
and all the families of the nations
will bow down before him,
28 for dominion belongs to the Lord
and he rules over the nations.
29 All the rich of the earth will feast and worship;
all who go down to the dust will kneel before him –
those who cannot keep themselves alive.
30 Posterity will serve him;
future generations will be told about the Lord.
31 They will proclaim his righteousness,
declaring to a people yet unborn:
He has done it!

Or this, who is this talking about I wonder
Who has believed our message
and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
and like a root out of dry ground.
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.
3 He was despised and rejected by mankind,
a man of suffering, and familiar with pain.
Like one from whom people hide their faces
he was despised, and we held him in low esteem.
4 Surely he took up our pain
and bore our suffering,
yet we considered him punished by God,
stricken by him, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
and by his wounds we are healed.
6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to our own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
and as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.
8 By oppression[a] and judgment he was taken away.
Yet who of his generation protested?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
for the transgression of my people he was punished.[b]
9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
nor was any deceit in his mouth.
10 Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the Lord makes[c] his life an offering for sin,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand.
11 After he has suffered,
he will see the light of life[d] and be satisfied;[e]
by his knowledge[f] my righteous servant will justify many,
and he will bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,[g]
and he will divide the spoils with the strong,[h]
because he poured out his life unto death,
and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
and made intercession for the transgressors.



Both passages talk about someone who is pierced. One says his hands and feet are pierced. The other says he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities, the punishment that brought us peace was on him. It talks about someone who dies for the sins of the people, but then will see the light of life. These passages were written centuries before Jesus. They are Old Testament prophecies about the Messiah.

No other religion stakes its validity on a historical event, the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus. If you want to know whether or not Christianity is true, look at the resurrection. This is the one thing you have to believe to be saved. And funnily enough, it's the one thing for which there is a considerable amount to go on to be able to ascertain whether or not it's true. How convenient. We are not required to believe something that is very difficult to establish, such as the parting of the Red Sea. Someone said in this thread that Jesus was one of many religious leaders who were executed. How many of the others have you heard of? If Jesus didn't rise from the dead, we would never have heard of him, either. The Jewish leaders got the Romans to execute him because they wanted him dead because they knew that that would kill off the movement, his followers would scatter and go into hiding, and that would be the end of it. Except it wasn't. When the disciples emerged annoyingly proclaiming Jesus's resurrection, in the very city where he had walked and talked and been crucified, there wasn't much the Jewish leaders could say. They couldn't point to the body and say, "Look, here's his body! He's not alive," because the body had gone. Muhammad's body is still lying in a tomb in Medina, and is a pilgrimage site for Muslims. Jesus's body disappeared within a couple of days of his execution. Pilgrims who go there go to visit an empty tomb.

Again, unlike any other religious leader I can think of, Jesus had a herald come before and one after, sandwiched between two bookends. John the Baptist and the apostle Paul. Only God can arrange this. The story of Paul itself testifies to the resurrection. Committing himself to weeding out believers in Jesus and having them arrested.

"Meanwhile, Saul was still breathing out murderous threats against the Lord’s disciples."​

Saul was Paul's name before he converted. Why did he convert? Because of what happened as he was on his way to Damascus to arrest Christians and have them brought back to Jerusalem. Jesus appeared before him, and he was rendered blind and had to go to find a man named Ananias to have his sight restored.

The teaching of Jesus is impeccable. Love your enemies, pray for those who persecute you. And he didn't just preach it, he walked the talk. On the cross he prayed for his murderers: "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do." He is the embodiment of God's love.

So after thousands of words of waffle, you still didn’t manage to answer my question.

I’ll try it another way. If you were born and raised in say Saudi Arabia, and brought up as a Muslim, you would be following the ‘wrong’ religion. You would believe that you were following the ‘right’ religion just as much as you do now. Presumably you accept that?

In which case, how would you know that you were ‘wrong’ and the Christians were ‘right’? And how do you know the reverse isn’t true now?

Do you also accept that the Earth isn’t really 5,000 years old?

 

[kuzushi]

Do you have any comment on this quote from the abstract?
"The experimental results are compatible with the hypothesis that the TS is a 2000-year-old relic, as supposed by Christian tradition, under the condition that it was kept at suitable levels of average secular temperature—20.0–22.5 °C—and correlated relative humidity—75–55%—for 13 centuries of unknown history, in addition to the seven centuries of known history in Europe."

This whole Shroud topic has led me to watching something about it on YouTube, and this video came up, and there was a point made 15 minutes in which is relevant to this post of yours. As you point out, the results depend on the temperature at which the cloth being tested has been kept at. Basically it appears that one thing is for certain, the shroud has to be considerably more than 700 years old according to the WAXS test. For it to be only 700 years old, it would have to have been kept in conditions of the highest temperatures on earth day and night 24/7 for all those 700 years.


There are quite a few other interesting things mentioned by Fr. Spitzer:

• The heights of the scourgers: apparently from the lacerations on the body, it is possible to ascertain that he was flogged by two men of different heights, one flogging him from one side and one from the other. That is quite a specific detail for a forger to have put into his work.
• The Sudarium of Oviedo has 120 points of congruence with the face of the image on the Shroud. Normally facial recognition software requires just 40 points of congruence for a positive ID. The known provenance of the Sudarium dates back to at least 616AD. It's been kept in Oviedo since 700AD, so if it is indeed the same person, the shroud must also date back that far.
• The image on the shroud is a snapshot of the moment of the resurrection
• The image on the cloth is a photographic negative image.
• It shows Jesus as he actually looked in 3D.
• It has x-ray properties.
• It's the most extraordinary image in the world.
• It's the most scientifically studied object in the world.
• Jesus's crucifixion was unusual in that there was the crown of thorns and spear in his side, and these are depicted in the image on the shroud.
• It's a photographic negative done before anyone knew about photographic negatives
• The 1988 radiocarbon dating test has been debunked by four different tests
• The 1988 test was supposed to be done on 7 different sample patches, but it was done on just one patch taken from one spot
• There was cotton in the sample patch and dye
• Mass spectrometry, sample not from the original cloth
• There is no image on the shroud under the blood. The image exists only on the areas where there is no blood.
• The ultraviolet light hypothesis would require 6 billion to 8 billion Watts of power for 2.5e-11 seconds (ie. a tiny amount of time) to account for the image on the shroud.
• There are 372 blood stains on the shroud.
• It is blood-type AB positive (universal recipient)
• He was whipped with a Roman flagrum
• The heights of the scourgers: apparently from the lacerations on the body, it is possible to ascertain that he was flogged by two men of different heights, one flogging him from one side and one from the other.
• There's evidence of blood and water, from the spear wound as described in the gospels
• Evidence of the man on the shroud having carried his own cross because shoulder dislocated
• Knee wounds visible from falling on knees, as described in the gospel

Radiocarbon dating of the Shroud of Turin - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org