[Misc] Christians seem to be really good people

[kuzushi]

You didn't think to post a link for this bit?

More recent tests with new methods have dated it to around the time of Jesus.

Good point

X-ray Dating of a Turin Shroud’s Linen Sample

On a sample of the Turin Shroud (TS), we applied a new method for dating ancient linen threads by inspecting their structural degradation by means of Wide-Angle X-ray Scattering (WAXS). The X-ray dating method was applied to a sample of the TS consisting of a thread taken in proximity of the...

www.mdpi.com

 

[pastafarian]

The test you're referring to is the radio-carbon dating one from 1988.
It's worth reading a bit more about it. The wiki section provides a good summary.

Raymond Rogers - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I'll quote you this section which is of particular interest:
When Rogers saw the paper by Marino and Benford, his reaction was that they were not scientists,[6] their theory was ridiculous, and that he still had fiber samples he had taken from the Shroud that could disprove their theory. Upon examining the fibers under a microscope, however, he concluded that, as they had hypothesized, a cotton patch had been woven into the linen fibers and then dyed to match the color of the linen. This was possible because linen is strongly resistant to dyes but cotton is not. Rogers claimed that the repair had gone undetected because it was expertly done; there was no record of it; none of the STURP team were textile experts; and the area had not previously been a major focus of any major Shroud researchers' attention, because it was outside the image area.

More recent tests with new methods have dated it to around the time of Jesus.
Ray Rogers was Director of Chemical Research for the Shroud of Turin Research Project (STURP) in 1978, applying thermal methods to the study of this relic.

Lots of instances showing its fake

Shroud of Turin - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The middle ages were awash with fakes.
There were 18 foreskins of Jesus in circulation at one time.
How many johnsons did the lad have?

 

[kuzushi]

The Shroud of Turin Website - Home Page

Shroud of Turin Website

shroud.com

Very good website run by a Jew who worked on the STURP as the official photographer and found faith through the experience, although he's not a Christian.

 

[BadFish]

Good point

X-ray Dating of a Turin Shroud’s Linen Sample

On a sample of the Turin Shroud (TS), we applied a new method for dating ancient linen threads by inspecting their structural degradation by means of Wide-Angle X-ray Scattering (WAXS). The X-ray dating method was applied to a sample of the TS consisting of a thread taken in proximity of the...

www.mdpi.com

Interesting, a quick scan does suggest that it is inconclusive at present (different threads produced differed estimates by the looks of it). It will be interesting once they have done the x-ray dating they refer to

 

[kuzushi]

Lots of instances showing its fake

Shroud of Turin - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The middle ages were awash with fakes.
There were 18 foreskins of Jesus in circulation at one time.
How many johnsons did the lad have?

Lovely. Tell me about how it's fake in your opinion. Tell me, is there blood on the cloth? Is the face formed of blood? Or paint? Or scorched on? Is there an image on the cloth under where the blood is?

 

[BadFish]

Lovely. Tell me about how it's fake in your opinion. Tell me, is there blood on the cloth? Is the face formed of blood? Or paint? Or scorched on? Is there an image on the cloth under where the blood is?

Is there much point to this though? You seem pretty set in your thinking here. Are there any cracks in your reasoning.

You are uuterly convinced that the TS dates back to the time of Jesus.

Therefore the image proves it must be the burial shroud of Jesus.

There for Jesus is the son of God.

Am I right?

 

[kuzushi]

Am I right?

Is there much point to this though? You seem pretty set in your thinking here. Are there any cracks in your reasoning.

You are uuterly convinced that the TS dates back to the time of Jesus.

Therefore the image proves it must be the burial shroud of Jesus.

There for Jesus is the son of God.

Am I right?

I'm pretty convinced, yes. I've looked at the arguments on both sides, and noticed that there is a difference in the quality of them. The arguments against seem to boil down primarily to two things. A letter in the 14th century saying it was a fake and the radiocarbon dating test of 1988. That's about it, and they are what I would call easily dismissable. Why do I deem them dismissable? Well, let's take the letter. It claims that the caught the forger and he told them how he "painted" it. However, this alleged forger is not named, there is nothing mentioned in the letter about how the forger is supposed to have "painted" it, and the image is not painted on anyway. There is no paint, ink or dye in the image. The image itself is caused by oxidation and dehydration of the cellulose in the absolute very top layers of the micro-fibres of the cloth. Not painted, and impossible for anyone to do, even today. Everything about it is impossible really. No one can replicate it. Not with all the properties it has. Wikipedia is silly, too, because it says things like "the repair patch theory has been debunked." I think, "Oh really? Sounds interesting. I haven't heard anything about the repair patch theory having been debunked." So I click on the link of the alleged debunking, and it leads nowhere. Really strange.

On the other hand, the evidence in support of the authenticity of the shroud is not easily dismissable. In fact, as I've already mentioned, it is so good that scientists working on the shroud have converted and become Christians on the basis of what they have seen. Of course, the media only talks about the radiocarbon dating test of 1988, and doesn't mention the fact the even the director of the project himself (Ray Rogers) came to agree with those who pointed out that it was in fact a medieval repair patch.

There are many things about it that are extraordinary. For example, as I said, no one knows how the image was put on the shroud. It is not scorched on, because the image does not fluoresce. It is not painted on. One of the hypotheses is that it would have had to have been caused by a sudden burst of a colossal amount of light energy lasting only the most infinitesimally small amount of time. I can't remember the exact figures, but it's a ridiculously huge amount of energy and a ridiculously short duration of time. Pretty difficult for a medieval forger to arrange. What could have caused this to happen?

I've already mentioned the VP-8 image analyzer. Peter Schumacher, the inventor, is one of the scientists who converted and became a follower of Jesus of Nazareth when he saw the results of the scan. It has 3D information encoded into the image.

There is no image under the areas where there is blood. So the blood got there first, and the image was created later. That in itself is interesting, but also it makes the job of the forger harder. It would be easier to do the image first, and then add the blood after. It's much harder to get the image to match the blood.

The fact that the actual image on the cloth is a photographic negative is also astounding. How and more to the point why on earth would a medieval forger do it like that, centuries before the invention of photography? What would be the point?

It has x-ray and holographic properties, too. There is pollen endemic to the Jerusalem area on it. The blood stains match those on the Sudarium of Oviedo, too which is also interesting. Police photo IDs and face recognition technology require 40 points of coincidence to establish someone's identity. The Shroud and the Sudarium have over 100. Now, the provenance of the Sudarium is well known. It travelling west along the coast of North Africa as Islam expanded in the 7th century, ending up in Spain. So if the Shroud and the Sudarium are of the same person, which over 100 points of coincidence would strongly suggest, the Shroud must date back to at least then.

 

[kuzushi]

I'm pretty convinced, yes. I've looked at the arguments on both sides, and noticed that there is a difference in the quality of them. The arguments against seem to boil down primarily to two things. A letter in the 14th century saying it was a fake and the radiocarbon dating test of 1988. That's about it, and they are what I would call easily dismissable. Why do I deem them dismissable? Well, let's take the letter. It claims that the caught the forger and he told them how he "painted" it. However, this alleged forger is not named, there is nothing mentioned in the letter about how the forger is supposed to have "painted" it, and the image is not painted on anyway. There is no paint, ink or dye in the image. The image itself is caused by oxidation and dehydration of the cellulose in the absolute very top layers of the micro-fibres of the cloth. Not painted, and impossible for anyone to do, even today. Everything about it is impossible really. No one can replicate it. Not with all the properties it has. Wikipedia is silly, too, because it says things like "the repair patch theory has been debunked." I think, "Oh really? Sounds interesting. I haven't heard anything about the repair patch theory having been debunked." So I click on the link of the alleged debunking, and it leads nowhere. Really strange.

On the other hand, the evidence in support of the authenticity of the shroud is not easily dismissable. In fact, as I've already mentioned, it is so good that scientists working on the shroud have converted and become Christians on the basis of what they have seen. Of course, the media only talks about the radiocarbon dating test of 1988, and doesn't mention the fact the even the director of the project himself (Ray Rogers) came to agree with those who pointed out that it was in fact a medieval repair patch.

There are many things about it that are extraordinary. For example, as I said, no one knows how the image was put on the shroud. It is not scorched on, because the image does not fluoresce. It is not painted on. One of the hypotheses is that it would have had to have been caused by a sudden burst of a colossal amount of light energy lasting only the most infinitesimally small amount of time. I can't remember the exact figures, but it's a ridiculously huge amount of energy and a ridiculously short duration of time. Pretty difficult for a medieval forger to arrange. What could have caused this to happen?

I've already mentioned the VP-8 image analyzer. Peter Schumacher, the inventor, is one of the scientists who converted and became a follower of Jesus of Nazareth when he saw the results of the scan. It has 3D information encoded into the image.

There is no image under the areas where there is blood. So the blood got there first, and the image was created later. That in itself is interesting, but also it makes the job of the forger harder. It would be easier to do the image first, and then add the blood after. It's much harder to get the image to match the blood.

The fact that the actual image on the cloth is a photographic negative is also astounding. How and more to the point why on earth would a medieval forger do it like that, centuries before the invention of photography? What would be the point?

It has x-ray and holographic properties, too. There is pollen endemic to the Jerusalem area on it. The blood stains match those on the Sudarium of Oviedo, too which is also interesting. Police photo IDs and face recognition technology require 40 points of coincidence to establish someone's identity. The Shroud and the Sudarium have over 100. Now, the provenance of the Sudarium is well known. It travelling west along the coast of North Africa as Islam expanded in the 7th century, ending up in Spain. So if the Shroud and the Sudarium are of the same person, which over 100 points of coincidence would strongly suggest, the Shroud must date back to at least then.

Also, it bears the wounds of Jesus, the crown of thorns and the spear in the side.

 

[kuzushi]

This is the guy behind www.shroud.com

 

[BadFish]

I'm pretty convinced, yes. I've looked at the arguments on both sides, and noticed that there is a difference in the quality of them. The arguments against seem to boil down primarily to two things. A letter in the 14th century saying it was a fake and the radiocarbon dating test of 1988. That's about it, and they are what I would call easily dismissable. Why do I deem them dismissable? Well, let's take the letter. It claims that the caught the forger and he told them how he "painted" it. However, this alleged forger is not named, there is nothing mentioned in the letter about how the forger is supposed to have "painted" it, and the image is not painted on anyway. There is no paint, ink or dye in the image. The image itself is caused by oxidation and dehydration of the cellulose in the absolute very top layers of the micro-fibres of the cloth. Not painted, and impossible for anyone to do, even today. Everything about it is impossible really. No one can replicate it. Not with all the properties it has. Wikipedia is silly, too, because it says things like "the repair patch theory has been debunked." I think, "Oh really? Sounds interesting. I haven't heard anything about the repair patch theory having been debunked." So I click on the link of the alleged debunking, and it leads nowhere. Really strange.

On the other hand, the evidence in support of the authenticity of the shroud is not easily dismissable. In fact, as I've already mentioned, it is so good that scientists working on the shroud have converted and become Christians on the basis of what they have seen. Of course, the media only talks about the radiocarbon dating test of 1988, and doesn't mention the fact the even the director of the project himself (Ray Rogers) came to agree with those who pointed out that it was in fact a medieval repair patch.

There are many things about it that are extraordinary. For example, as I said, no one knows how the image was put on the shroud. It is not scorched on, because the image does not fluoresce. It is not painted on. One of the hypotheses is that it would have had to have been caused by a sudden burst of a colossal amount of light energy lasting only the most infinitesimally small amount of time. I can't remember the exact figures, but it's a ridiculously huge amount of energy and a ridiculously short duration of time. Pretty difficult for a medieval forger to arrange. What could have caused this to happen?

I've already mentioned the VP-8 image analyzer. Peter Schumacher, the inventor, is one of the scientists who converted and became a follower of Jesus of Nazareth when he saw the results of the scan. It has 3D information encoded into the image.

There is no image under the areas where there is blood. So the blood got there first, and the image was created later. That in itself is interesting, but also it makes the job of the forger harder. It would be easier to do the image first, and then add the blood after. It's much harder to get the image to match the blood.

The fact that the actual image on the cloth is a photographic negative is also astounding. How and more to the point why on earth would a medieval forger do it like that, centuries before the invention of photography? What would be the point?

It has x-ray and holographic properties, too. There is pollen endemic to the Jerusalem area on it. The blood stains match those on the Sudarium of Oviedo, too which is also interesting. Police photo IDs and face recognition technology require 40 points of coincidence to establish someone's identity. The Shroud and the Sudarium have over 100. Now, the provenance of the Sudarium is well known. It travelling west along the coast of North Africa as Islam expanded in the 7th century, ending up in Spain. So if the Shroud and the Sudarium are of the same person, which over 100 points of coincidence would strongly suggest, the Shroud must date back to at least then.

Cool, sounds like you have found lots of stuff to fit your narrative.

 

[Insel affe]

The Shroud of Turin Website - Home Page

Shroud of Turin Website

shroud.com

Very good website run by a Jew who worked on the STURP as the official photographer and found faith through the experience, although he's not a Christian.

Run by a what now !!!
Phew, although he’s not a Christian….

You have probably cut & pasted that, but thinking that is ok, tells me something about your mindset.

 

[kuzushi]

This is good. The speaker is a sceptic (atheist basically) but he knows his stuff.

 

[kuzushi]

Run by a what now !!!
Phew, although he’s not a Christian….

You have probably cut & pasted that, but thinking that is ok, tells me something about your mindset.

Run by a Jew. There's nothing wrong with being a Jew. Jesus himself was a Jew.
It's the word the Bible uses to refer to Jesus and his people. I don't understand the faux outrage.
3 What advantage, then, is there in being a Jew, or what value is there in circumcision? 2 Much in every way! First of all, the Jews have been entrusted with the very words of God.

 

[HalfaSeatOn]

Almost every Christian I've met seems to be a genuinely really good person. Like, ridiculously good - always wanting to do the right thing, and aspiring to be the best person they can be.

Not sure if it's just Christian values, or whether it's the belief that there is a God judging them for their actions, but either way for whatever reason they seem to be very good people... model citizens, almost.

Makes me wonder whether the demise of Christianity is a bad thing - and that atheism has resulted in selfishness and narcissism, where nothing matters but oneself.

I know a lot of ‘very good’ people at an individual level but religion is just a servant to a money chasing system and I cant separate the two.

 

[Commander]

Run by a Jew. There's nothing wrong with being a Jew. Jesus himself was a Jew.
It's the word the Bible uses to refer to Jesus and his people. I don't understand the faux outrage.
3 What advantage, then, is there in being a Jew, or what value is there in circumcision? 2 Much in every way! First of all, the Jews have been entrusted with the very words of God.

I’m sure this has been asked already, but what makes you so sure you picked the ‘right’ religion, and all the others got the ‘wrong’ one, when they are just as sure as you that they have picked the ‘right’ one?

 

[BadFish]

I’m sure this has been asked already, but what makes you so sure you picked the ‘right’ religion, and all the others got the ‘wrong’ one, when they are just as sure as you that they have picked the ‘right’ one?

Basically it's because Jesus is the one. It says so in the bible and Jesus is mentioned in other religions too. So he must be the son of God.

Which is lucky because if he makes the wrong choice he is facing an eternity of firey damnation. Which makes the decision the all loving God is asking us to make, quite and important one.

 

[kuzushi]

Run by a what now !!!
Phew, although he’s not a Christian….

You have probably cut & pasted that, but thinking that is ok, tells me something about your mindset.

Are you Jewish?
If you are and you feel there's something wrong with the word Jew, and it offends you, then fair enough.

 

[PILTDOWN MAN]

Run by a Jew. There's nothing wrong with being a Jew. Jesus himself was a Jew.
It's the word the Bible uses to refer to Jesus and his people. I don't understand the faux outrage.
3 What advantage, then, is there in being a Jew, or what value is there in circumcision? 2 Much in every way! First of all, the Jews have been entrusted with the very words of God.

Nothing wrong with being a Jew? Accept they don’t follow Jesus so your all forgiving God is sending them to Croydon for eternity.

You’re own pedestal is so high

 

[Blues Guitarist]

He (Jesus) gave his life for us so that we could be spared the righteous wrath of God, but in exchange we must give our lives to him.

I saw that recent documentary on the Turin Shroud. Its still dated to around 1300(give or take a few) which ties it in with the first historical record of the shroud in the 1300s.
Its still a fake

Even if you could date it to 30 CE there is still no evidence to suggest that it had anything to do with a convicted felon called Jesus.

 

[kuzushi]

I’m sure this has been asked already, but what makes you so sure you picked the ‘right’ religion, and all the others got the ‘wrong’ one, when they are just as sure as you that they have picked the ‘right’ one?

There is no religion like Christianity. No other religion that was prophesied about coming for thousands of years before it arrived.
I've posted this already, and some people apparently don't like too many Bible quotations, but who do you think it's talking about?

My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
Why are you so far from saving me,
so far from my cries of anguish?
2 My God, I cry out by day, but you do not answer,
by night, but I find no rest.[b]
3 Yet you are enthroned as the Holy One;
you are the one Israel praises.[c]
4 In you our ancestors put their trust;
they trusted and you delivered them.
5 To you they cried out and were saved;
in you they trusted and were not put to shame.
6 But I am a worm and not a man,
scorned by everyone, despised by the people.
7 All who see me mock me;
they hurl insults, shaking their heads.
8 ‘He trusts in the Lord,’ they say,
‘let the Lord rescue him.
Let him deliver him,
since he delights in him.’
9 Yet you brought me out of the womb;
you made me trust in you, even at my mother’s breast.
10 From birth I was cast on you;
from my mother’s womb you have been my God.
11 Do not be far from me,
for trouble is near
and there is no one to help.
12 Many bulls surround me;
strong bulls of Bashan encircle me.
13 Roaring lions that tear their prey
open their mouths wide against me.
14 I am poured out like water,
and all my bones are out of joint.
My heart has turned to wax;
it has melted within me.
15 My mouth[d] is dried up like a potsherd,
and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth;
you lay me in the dust of death.
16 Dogs surround me,
a pack of villains encircles me;
they pierce my hands and my feet.
17 All my bones are on display;
people stare and gloat over me.
18 They divide my clothes among them
and cast lots for my garment.
19 But you, Lord, do not be far from me.
You are my strength; come quickly to help me.
20 Deliver me from the sword,
my precious life from the power of the dogs.
21 Rescue me from the mouth of the lions;
save me from the horns of the wild oxen.
22 I will declare your name to my people;
in the assembly I will praise you.
23 You who fear the Lord, praise him!
All you descendants of Jacob, honour him!
Revere him, all you descendants of Israel!
24 For he has not despised or scorned
the suffering of the afflicted one;
he has not hidden his face from him
but has listened to his cry for help.
25 From you comes the theme of my praise in the great assembly;
before those who fear you I will fulfil my vows.
26 The poor will eat and be satisfied;
those who seek the Lord will praise him –
may your hearts live for ever!
27 All the ends of the earth
will remember and turn to the Lord,
and all the families of the nations
will bow down before him,
28 for dominion belongs to the Lord
and he rules over the nations.
29 All the rich of the earth will feast and worship;
all who go down to the dust will kneel before him –
those who cannot keep themselves alive.
30 Posterity will serve him;
future generations will be told about the Lord.
31 They will proclaim his righteousness,
declaring to a people yet unborn:
He has done it!

Or this, who is this talking about I wonder
Who has believed our message
and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
and like a root out of dry ground.
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.
3 He was despised and rejected by mankind,
a man of suffering, and familiar with pain.
Like one from whom people hide their faces
he was despised, and we held him in low esteem.
4 Surely he took up our pain
and bore our suffering,
yet we considered him punished by God,
stricken by him, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
and by his wounds we are healed.
6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to our own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
and as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.
8 By oppression[a] and judgment he was taken away.
Yet who of his generation protested?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
for the transgression of my people he was punished.[b]
9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
nor was any deceit in his mouth.
10 Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the Lord makes[c] his life an offering for sin,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand.
11 After he has suffered,
he will see the light of life[d] and be satisfied;[e]
by his knowledge[f] my righteous servant will justify many,
and he will bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,[g]
and he will divide the spoils with the strong,[h]
because he poured out his life unto death,
and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
and made intercession for the transgressors.



Both passages talk about someone who is pierced. One says his hands and feet are pierced. The other says he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities, the punishment that brought us peace was on him. It talks about someone who dies for the sins of the people, but then will see the light of life. These passages were written centuries before Jesus. They are Old Testament prophecies about the Messiah.

No other religion stakes its validity on a historical event, the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus. If you want to know whether or not Christianity is true, look at the resurrection. This is the one thing you have to believe to be saved. And funnily enough, it's the one thing for which there is a considerable amount to go on to be able to ascertain whether or not it's true. How convenient. We are not required to believe something that is very difficult to establish, such as the parting of the Red Sea. Someone said in this thread that Jesus was one of many religious leaders who were executed. How many of the others have you heard of? If Jesus didn't rise from the dead, we would never have heard of him, either. The Jewish leaders got the Romans to execute him because they wanted him dead because they knew that that would kill off the movement, his followers would scatter and go into hiding, and that would be the end of it. Except it wasn't. When the disciples emerged annoyingly proclaiming Jesus's resurrection, in the very city where he had walked and talked and been crucified, there wasn't much the Jewish leaders could say. They couldn't point to the body and say, "Look, here's his body! He's not alive," because the body had gone. Muhammad's body is still lying in a tomb in Medina, and is a pilgrimage site for Muslims. Jesus's body disappeared within a couple of days of his execution. Pilgrims who go there go to visit an empty tomb.

Again, unlike any other religious leader I can think of, Jesus had a herald come before and one after, sandwiched between two bookends. John the Baptist and the apostle Paul. Only God can arrange this. The story of Paul itself testifies to the resurrection. Committing himself to weeding out believers in Jesus and having them arrested.

"Meanwhile, Saul was still breathing out murderous threats against the Lord’s disciples."​

Saul was Paul's name before he converted. Why did he convert? Because of what happened as he was on his way to Damascus to arrest Christians and have them brought back to Jerusalem. Jesus appeared before him, and he was rendered blind and had to go to find a man named Ananias to have his sight restored.

The teaching of Jesus is impeccable. Love your enemies, pray for those who persecute you. And he didn't just preach it, he walked the talk. On the cross he prayed for his murderers: "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do." He is the embodiment of God's love.