[Misc] Christians seem to be really good people

[Insel affe]

I just want to put on record that I did not say that there is no anti-Jewish persecution, and neither do I think that.
What I was questioning is the suggestion that Christians are particularly responsible for it.

I see you have not answered my questions earlier, are they too uncomfortable for you ?
have I unbalanced you ?

 

[Insel affe]

I don't believe in good and evil. I recognize jeopardy and safety, friendship and hostility, cruelty and kindness. Etc.

The standard is whatever we wish it to be.

If you mean by not perfect as not always self sacrificing, and indeed not necessarily vigorously proactive, on the streets every day seeking out the poor and downtrodden and offering succour, I think a tiny minority are like this. A life of devotion to others. But that is not perfection in the eyes of most, and it isn't even attractive to most of us.

Consider this (I give several examples to cater of orientation):

Mother Theresa or Amanda Donohoe?
Rupert Everett or Peter Tatchell?
Lady Diana or Lady Gaga?
Kier Starmer or Boris Johnson?

One person's perfect may be another person's hell.

So the reason why we have not all evolved to be perfect (even if this were definable) is because selfishness, ruthlessness, strength and cunning, and indeed the ability to be amusing, are admired, are influential and are desirable, to different degrees to different people.

We are a homogenous lot.

And yet we are also very similar, which is how it is so common for people to adopt children, even of different races (and indeed couple up with people who may seem superficially very different). There is even a growing idea that although we may not breed ourselves, we can influence the gene pool through our work.

Not all of us want to achieve immortality, and not all that do wish to do so in the way Woody Allen claimed he wished to do so, but spreading our seed is not always the best way to serve the species, or even necessarily ourselves.

I wish you were god, so much of what you say is balanced

 

[BadFish]

The most religious people I know read the Mail, express or the telegraph and vote Tory. I simply can’t compute how the these things go together. Which part of the bible does Jesus discuss the wealthy keeping the money and actively trying to keep it away from the poor? I simply don’t understand how the same people who pray for refugees in sunday prayers then read the Mail and repeat the bile.

Take your pick of the stories. The Good Samaritan? I don’t see many of them behaving like Reece mogg, trump etc.

Totally agree, it is always the debate about gay people that highlights this. I cannot fathom how you could read about Jesus on a regular basis and come to the conclusion that he wouldn't support homosexuality. LGBTQ+ is just the kind of marginalised group that he would have supported.

Yet somehow people convince themselves of the opposite.

 

[BadFish]

I wish you were god, so much of what you say is balanced

Very much a pattern from our Christian friend. Lots of quotes from the bible as if they count as evidence of some kind and a flat refusal to any any questions put to him.

His skills in avoiding questions is impressive, perhaps this is why so many politicians are Christian.

 

[kuzushi]

I see you have not answered my questions earlier, are they too uncomfortable for you ?
have I unbalanced you ?

What question was that?
I might have missed it.

 

[kuzushi]

How do you feel about those people who use Jesus and the rest of your faith to carry out such unchristian acts?
The Catholic church protecting paedophile priests, evangelical extremists taking money from their flock. Us presidents using Jesus to justify war, the list goes on.
As an agnostic this makes me angry, you must be furious about this.

Which war has a US president used Jesus to justify?
I've seen them use things such as spreading democracy, waging war on terror, and securing educational opportunities for girls, but I don't recall Jesus being used as a pretext for starting a war. I'm not saying you're wrong, but perhaps you can tell me which war it was and which President it was that did this.

Protecting criminals is obviously wrong. The same goes for exploiting people for money.

 

[Insel affe]

What question was that?
I might have missed it.

Post 277, I think page 14

 

[BadFish]

Which war has a US president used Jesus to justify?
I've seen them use things such as spreading democracy, waging war on terror, and securing educational opportunities for girls, but I don't recall Jesus being used as a pretext for starting a war. I'm not saying you're wrong, but perhaps you can tell me which war it was and which President it was that did this.

Protecting criminals is obviously wrong. The same goes for exploiting people for money.

So you recognise that people use your religion and
your saviour to do terrible things and your answer is that it is 'wrong'?

You spent three times as much time and effort questioning the premise of one small example in the question (fwiw George Bush, Iraq war -https://www.theguardian.com/world/2005/oct/07/iraq.usa but let's stick to the question).

Surely you condemn and reject these kinds of Christians?

 

[Thunder Bolt]

The most religious people I know read the Mail, express or the telegraph and vote Tory. I simply can’t compute how the these things go together. Which part of the bible does Jesus discuss the wealthy keeping the money and actively trying to keep it away from the poor? I simply don’t understand how the same people who pray for refugees in sunday prayers then read the Mail and repeat the bile.

Take your pick of the stories. The Good Samaritan? I don’t see many of them behaving like Reece mogg, trump etc.

There’s a big difference between religious people and people who have faith. Going to church and looking ‘respectable’ is religion.
People who have faith tend to be Good Samaritans. Discernment is telling the difference.
Remember when Jesus told the story, it was against the priest and the Levite. The Samaritan was a hated enemy. The person the story was aimed at was a rich young man who asked the question ‘Who is my neighbour’ arrogantly.

 

[Insel affe]

Which war has a US president used Jesus to justify?
I've seen them use things such as spreading democracy, waging war on terror, and securing educational opportunities for girls, but I don't recall Jesus being used as a pretext for starting a war. I'm not saying you're wrong, but perhaps you can tell me which war it was and which President it was that did this.

Protecting criminals is obviously wrong. The same goes for exploiting people for money.

Don’t forget Pope Urban II

 

[Insel affe]

Post 277, I think page 14

You won’t answer them though.
I wonder why

 

[kuzushi]

That is mighty fine of you, thank you.

Or perhaps, it is you that are not grasping the fact their is no evidence at all, none, zip, feck all that God exists at all.

Question, do you
1: Believe in evolution and that dinosaurs roamed this plant long before man, and that we may have evolved from apes ?
2: Do you believe that the Christian God and all other Gods are false.
3: Following on from that do you believe that all the followers of "false" prophets and Gods, along with atheists will perish at the time of the reckoning ?

1. It could be that way. There is evidence that that is the case.
2. Do I believe that the Christian God is false? No. All other gods? Well, there is only one creator.
3. Based on the fact that I believe that Jesus was crucified for our sins, it doesn't to me make sense that that would happen if it were not absolutely necessary. Jesus prayed for the cup of suffering he was about to drink to be taken away if possible, but the answer he got back was that it was not possible. Hence I believe that there is no other way. Jesus is the only way.

 

[kuzushi]

You won’t answer them though.
I wonder why

Why would you think I wouldn't answer them? I have (post 333)

 

[BadFish]

1. It could be that way. There is evidence that that is the case.
2. Do I believe that the Christian God is false? No. All other gods? Well, there is only one creator.
3. Based on the fact that I believe that Jesus was crucified for our sins, it doesn't to me make sense that that would happen if it were not absolutely necessary. Jesus prayed for the cup of suffering he was about to drink to be taken away if possible, but the answer he got back was that it was not possible. Hence I believe that there is no other way. Jesus is the only way.

Here is a question, If god created us all and has responsibility for all things. You mentioned in a previous post that he implanted in some a desire to know him.

Surely this means that he didn't implant that desire in others (me included apparently), along with this he has given others a desire to know him but through a different lens (Judaism and Islam). Further, he is responsible for my question cynicism and desire for proof. He as the omnipotent being has overseen us all and our creations, this creation and inplanted needs and beliefs have set us on our paths. He has set us on our paths to spirituality, our free will is bound by these innate characteristics that we have been given. Add to this the environmental, parental and geographical factors that govern our choice of spiritual enlightenment.

With all of this in mind our free choice of religion has to be bought into question.

Yet . . . at the end of it all it is us who are judged based on the mistake of following the personality and desires given to us by god, the mistake of following our parents into the religion they followed their parents into, the mistake of being born in a culture wedded to a particular religion or the mistake of picking the wrong off shoot of said religion ("you were close the answer was Church of England, Not Anglian" You would have made it if you were born in the UK, not Australia, soz").

So the path to eternal salvation, angels and fluffy clouds is very different for different people.

Unquestioning Bob from Dunny on the Weld follows his parents to church and continues to praise the lord every Sunday with Hymns and stuff - straight to heaven

The path for Awat who lives in the middle east involves turning away from the teaching of his family and ancestors, breaking away from the Imans and their teaching, breaking the law and risking death for sins against Allah, and all this is before he needs to find a way to the UK to find a church of England congregation.

The path for Dave who questions everything with his scientific mind and inability to just accept platitudinal simplifications about 'faith' and a stern reliance on books thousands of years old means that he has to totally break his god-given programming to try and scientifically figure out which of the hundreds of religions is the correct one. Dave ends up trying all of them as he figures he needs to get a really good handle on each to be able to say with any certainty which one is correct. He is heard to exclaim "Why didn't you give me a trusting nature so I could have just believed the first religious leader I came across". Eventually, after years of researching and devoting himself to different religions, he is still unsure of which is correct as he gets hit by a bus and has to take his chances.

Hardly a level playing field is it?

Although the bible tells us

Romans 2:11 For God does not show favouritism.​

 

[kuzushi]

Here is a question, If god created us all and has responsibility for all things. You mentioned in a previous post that he implanted in some a desire to know him.

Surely this means that he didn't implant that desire in others (me included apparently), along with this he has given others a desire to know him but through a different lens (Judaism and Islam). Further, he is responsible for my question cynicism and desire for proof. He as the omnipotent being has overseen us all and our creations, this creation and inplanted needs and beliefs have set us on our paths. He has set us on our paths to spirituality, our free will is bound by these innate characteristics that we have been given. Add to this the environmental, parental and geographical factors that govern our choice of spiritual enlightenment.

With all of this in mind our free choice of religion has to be bought into question.

Yet . . . at the end of it all it is us who are judged based on the mistake of following the personality and desires given to us by god, the mistake of following our parents into the religion they followed their parents into, the mistake of being born in a culture wedded to a particular religion or the mistake of picking the wrong off shoot of said religion ("you were close the answer was Church of England, Not Anglian" You would have made it if you were born in the UK, not Australia, soz").

So the path to eternal salvation, angels and fluffy clouds is very different for different people.

Unquestioning Bob from Dunny on the Weld follows his parents to church and continues to praise the lord every Sunday with Hymns and stuff - straight to heaven

The path for Awat who lives in the middle east involves turning away from the teaching of his family and ancestors, breaking away from the Imans and their teaching, breaking the law and risking death for sins against Allah, and all this is before he needs to find a way to the UK to find a church of England congregation.

The path for Dave who questions everything with his scientific mind and inability to just accept platitudinal simplifications about 'faith' and a stern reliance on books thousands of years old means that he has to totally break his god-given programming to try and scientifically figure out which of the hundreds of religions is the correct one. Dave ends up trying all of them as he figures he needs to get a really good handle on each to be able to say with any certainty which one is correct. He is heard to exclaim "Why didn't you give me a trusting nature so I could have just believed the first religious leader I came across". Eventually, after years of researching and devoting himself to different religions, he is still unsure of which is correct as he gets hit by a bus and has to take his chances.

Hardly a level playing field is it?

Although the bible tells us

Romans 2:11 For God does not show favouritism.​

I think it's obvious to everyone that Jesus is the way. Every religion respects him, as shown in the video I posted. Nearly everyone you talk to respects him, even if they are Muslim or Hindu or atheist. He's the only person who could unironically say, "I am the way, the truth and the life" and get away with it.

 

[Baldseagull]

The whole thing is somewhat confused by the question of what a Christian is.
There's true Christianity, which is what Jesus taught, and there is what humans have made of his teachings, and the two are often two quite different things. Being a Christian is not about becoming a member of a church. It's about believing in Jesus, believing in the resurrection, and seeking to follow Jesus in your daily life:
Then Jesus said to his disciples, “If any of you wants to be my follower, you must give up your own way, take up your cross, and follow me.
Jesus was not about using religion for political purposes, even if that's what his enemies tried to accuse him of.
He said that, although he is indeed a king, his kingdom was not of this world, which is why his followers did not fight to prevent his arrest. When his enemies tried to catch him in a trap by asking whether it was right to pay taxes, he asked whose head it was on the coin. When they said Caesar's, he said to give to Caesar what is Caesar's and give to God what is God's.
Jesus responded by asking whose face was engraved on the coins used to pay the taxes. When they answered it was Caesar's face, Jesus replied with the now-famous verse, “Then render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's; and to God the things that are God's” (Matthew 22:21 NASB)

He told us to do to others as we'd like others to do to us, and he said that the greatest commandments in the Old Testament were to love the Lord your God with all your heart mind soul and strength and to love your neighbour as yourself. He told us to turn the other cheek and to go the extra mile. He told us to love our enemies and to pray for those who persecute us. He washed his disciples' feet as an example, and asked whether they understood the significance of what he'd just done.
When he had finished washing their feet, he put on his clothes and returned to his place. ‘Do you understand what I have done for you?’ he asked them. 13 ‘You call me “Teacher” and “Lord”, and rightly so, for that is what I am. 14 Now that I, your Lord and Teacher, have washed your feet, you also should wash one another’s feet. 15 I have set you an example that you should do as I have done for you. 16 Very truly I tell you, no servant is greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him. 17 Now that you know these things, you will be blessed if you do them.

Jesus called them together and said, ‘You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their high officials exercise authority over them. Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, and whoever wants to be first must be your slave – just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.’

Two questions, why was jesus unclothed while washing his disciples feet? And why feet? Surely washing someones back is more useful, I can reach my feet on my own.

 

[BadFish]

I think it's obvious to everyone that Jesus is the way. Every religion respects him, as shown in the video I posted. Nearly everyone you talk to respects him, even if they are Muslim or Hindu or atheist. He's the only person who could unironically say, "I am the way, the truth and the life" and get away with it.

A couple of things here: Although many respect him only a small number of religions accept him as the son of god. Therefore most do not accept him as the way to get to heaven.

If my understanding of your somewhat cloudy response to Psychobilly's question is correct, only those who believe that Jesus is the son of god are getting into heaven?

If this is the case then my point stands, it is far harder for some people to get into heaven than others. And the reason it is harder is because of the cards dealt to those people by god.

I am unsure of your point here, possibly you are suggesting that respect for Jesus and his actions is enough for a ticket to heaven. I love this idea and fully endorse this as a fair and just method of deciding if you are going up or down in the afterlife. Add to this judgement a bit about how people have lived their lives and I am fully behind it.


To ensure my understanding is correct please answer these questions in one sentence (so as not to confuse the matter):
- The followers of which religion are going to heaven?
- If the answer to this is Christians (as I suspect), are all denominations of Christianity going to heaven or is it just one of them?

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

Totally agree, it is always the debate about gay people that highlights this. I cannot fathom how you could read about Jesus on a regular basis and come to the conclusion that he wouldn't support homosexuality. LGBTQ+ is just the kind of marginalised group that he would have supported.

Yet somehow people convince themselves of the opposite.

And yet in 2023 the activist component of LGBTQ+ is acting like old school religious people.

If you don't believe in what we believe in you're bad and we will put labels on you to try and demonise you.

Transphobe is the new Heathen.

Note I said the activist component before some people get their knickers in a twist.

 

[Baldseagull]

I think it's obvious to everyone that Jesus is the way. Every religion respects him, as shown in the video I posted. Nearly everyone you talk to respects him, even if they are Muslim or Hindu or atheist. He's the only person who could unironically say, "I am the way, the truth and the life" and get away with it.

There are more Muslims and Hindus than Christians, not even counting the Sikhs, Buddhists, Jews, and all the atheists.
Jesus nicked most of his material from the Buddha. Jesus just had a good PR company for the West, the Holy Roman Empire. Without them rampaging across Europe, and forcing a change of religion everywhere they went, Jesus would be a lot less well known. Seems the best way to grow your religion historically has been through kicking ass and imposing it on the subjects.

 

[BadFish]

And yet in 2023 the activist component of LGBTQ+ is acting like old school religious people.

If you don't believe in what we believe in you're bad and we will put labels on you to try and demonise you.

Transphobe is the new Heathen.

Note I said the activist component before some people get their knickers in a twist.

Perhaps that is a discussion to go and have with them. Not really relevant here.