[Misc] Christians seem to be really good people

[kuzushi]

None taken, and no of course it's not my business, it's just a question.

Alright, well I do have kids and we talk about these things. One is rather a sceptic. While he can see the arguments supporting the existence of God and the resurrection, he's not sure about it all. I suppose he's best described as an agnostic. One of them (the wildest and most lairy one in fact) has recently become a lot more interested and is finding it extremely helpful, and it seems to be transforming him in a very good way. People can see the difference and have commented that he is changing for the better. He's always known about Jesus, but only recently has it all started to come together for him and he's started to come to church with me. The other one is younger and spends most of his time out and about with his mates.

Why is the word lairy appearing with a red line underneath it? Have I spelt it wrong?

 

[kuzushi]

There is still some questions about existance and why we are here that scientists cant answer
Why is there something and not nothing?
If this was all due to a big bang that came out of nothing, How can that be possible?

The big bang is one, the origin of life is another, and how to explain consciousness is a third.
No one can really explain any of these things. Richard Dawkins when interviewed admits he has no idea how life can have come about, and adheres to the panspermia theory which holds that life must have originated on another planet and somehow travelled across the cosmos to arrive here. Even the simplest possible organism is more complex than say a mobile phone. How can such a complex thing have popped into existence spontaneously?

 

[nickjhs]

Almost every Christian I've met seems to be a genuinely really good person. Like, ridiculously good - always wanting to do the right thing, and aspiring to be the best person they can be.

Not sure if it's just Christian values, or whether it's the belief that there is a God judging them for their actions, but either way for whatever reason they seem to be very good people... model citizens, almost.

Makes me wonder whether the demise of Christianity is a bad thing - and that atheism has resulted in selfishness and narcissism, where nothing matters but oneself.

I am not sure if you are trolling or just incredibly naive. For starters have a look at the all the people damaged by Christianity from child sexual abuse all around the world, the abuse of child immigrants to Australia, all the Roman Catholics bound to a wretched marriage by their ideology (my father for one), the mothers separated from their newborns because they were "born out of wedlock". The discrimination against anyone who doesn't fit neatly into Christian values of sexuality and gender, the idiotic sectarian violence with one brand of Christian warring against a slightly different version. If Christians are so bloody well behaved and moral why then do countries whose populations are darn near close to 100 percent Christian have so much violence and poverty (thinking of Brazil, Columbia etc.) Why does the US have so much violence, hate and poverty. As for charities sure there are a number of faith based ones but there are also many secular ones.
As to atheism all that is required to be an atheist is a lack of belief in the existence of a god no other world view, moral or ethical position is required. However, as to your claim that selfishness and narcissism could be a product of a lack of belief in gods I suspect that the vast majority of humanists are Atheists. Also I suggest you compare the social welfare setups and social inequality between countries that are predominantly secular vs those that are sectarian and then ask the question which societies appear more selfish. Come to think of it I cannot imagine a more narcissistic or selfish action than the belief that a person can pray to the supposed creator and have it intercede for them benefit on their behalf e.g. I cringe every time I see a footballer say a prayer of thanks when they score a goal, or in the case of the trapped Chilean miners who said thanks to god before they thanked their rescuers, and then of course we have the vulgar, obscene spectacle of people praising God for their survival from a natural disaster when tens of thousands have died around them.

 

[kuzushi]

Can we talk about why do people believe in God? that is a far more interesting subject.

For me, it's Jesus who points towards God.
If he didn't exist, someone would have had to be an absolute genius to invent him and his revolutionary teaching, and the disciples were pretty ordinary blokes, fishermen and whatnot. It's not just him in and of himself, but also the way he appeared, with prophecies in the Old Testament predicting so much about his life, and John the Baptist heralding his arrival, and St Paul coming afterwards. No other religious founder has this. For example, Muhammad just appeared and started preaching out of the blue. Same with Buddha. In the case of Jesus, John the Baptist comes first, announcing that the Messiah is about to appear. I don't think anyone else in ancient times has four biographies all written within a few decades of their life

Were it not for him, I'd be an agnostic.

 

[kuzushi]

I attend church regularly and find it very fulfilling. I like to help with church community projects and generally lend a hand to anyone in the congregation and they do the same in return.

I have only been doing this for the last two years and can honestly say, I wish I’d started earlier.

I don’t believe in a traditional “god” but It’s a very positive thing in my life and I find it great to be of service to others.

What got you into attending church?

 

[kuzushi]

You say he's given us free will, but if we choose to exercise it and not have a relationship with him we are condemed to eternal damnation. So not quite so "free", is it?

That's a fair point. I agree it's not much of a choice.

 

[kuzushi]

So basically if you don't believe in God/Jesus then you're not going to heaven?

Correct.

 

[nickjhs]

He's given us free will.

So according to the generally accepted Christian beliefs God is the all seeing, all powerful, all knowing and everpresent creator of everything. As the all knowing creator of me, is there anything I can do that will surprise this being? If the answer is no, which logically it must be, as the all knowing creator of me it would know BEFORE my creation what I was going to do, therefore if your God exists then we have no free will.

 

[Happy Exile]

Where are the stories of Jesus when he was 5, 10, 16, 23, 27 etc?

They exist in the Apocrypha, a load of books mostly written about the same time as the New Testament but for various reasons not considered "true" enough to be included as official books for the Bible by the early church. They can be quite interesting to read though and consider why the church included what they did and not others.

Lots of countries have legends of Jesus visiting as a child too, including the UK as referenced in the hymn Jerusalem, and supposedly why the Holy Grail ended up here too with Joseph of Arimathea. Lewes has two Holy Grail stories in it's folklore, other places in Sussex perhaps too.

 

[Nobby]

Correct.

Oh well
But I’ve never been much into harps and clouds and stuff
And apparently….
I suppose it’s just who to believe.

 

[BadFish]

I am not sure if you are trolling or just incredibly naive. For starters have a look at the all the people damaged by Christianity from child sexual abuse all around the world, the abuse of child immigrants to Australia, all the Roman Catholics bound to a wretched marriage by their ideology (my father for one), the mothers separated from their newborns because they were "born out of wedlock". The discrimination against anyone who doesn't fit neatly into Christian values of sexuality and gender, the idiotic sectarian violence with one brand of Christian warring against a slightly different version. If Christians are so bloody well behaved and moral why then do countries whose populations are darn near close to 100 percent Christian have so much violence and poverty (thinking of Brazil, Columbia etc.) Why does the US have so much violence, hate and poverty. As for charities sure there are a number of faith based ones but there are also many secular ones.
As to atheism all that is required to be an atheist is a lack of belief in the existence of a god no other world view, moral or ethical position is required. However, as to your claim that selfishness and narcissism could be a product of a lack of belief in gods I suspect that the vast majority of humanists are Atheists. Also I suggest you compare the social welfare setups and social inequality between countries that are predominantly secular vs those that are sectarian and then ask the question which societies appear more selfish. Come to think of it I cannot imagine a more narcissistic or selfish action than the belief that a person can pray to the supposed creator and have it intercede for them benefit on their behalf e.g. I cringe every time I see a footballer say a prayer of thanks when they score a goal, or in the case of the trapped Chilean miners who said thanks to god before they thanked their rescuers, and then of course we have the vulgar, obscene spectacle of people praising God for their survival from a natural disaster when tens of thousands have died around them.

I wonder if they thanked him for getting them stuck in the first place

 

[kuzushi]

So according to the generally accepted Christian beliefs God is the all seeing, all powerful, all knowing and everpresent creator of everything. As the all knowing creator of me, is there anything I can do that will surprise this being? If the answer is no, which logically it must be, as the all knowing creator of me it would know BEFORE my creation what I was going to do, therefore if your God exists then we have no free will.

How do you conclude that just because God knows what we're going to do, it means that we don't have free will? Do you think that it means that God controls us? If that were true, I'd agree with you, but it is possible to know that something is going to happen without being the one controlling it. I know that the sun will rise in the morning, but I'm not in control of it.

 

[nickjhs]

How do you conclude that just because God knows what we're going to do, it means that we don't have free will? Do you think that it means that God controls us? If that were true, I'd agree with you, but it is possible to know that something is going to happen without being the one controlling it. I know that the sun will rise in the morning, but I'm not in control of it.

When God created me did it know what I was going to do at the moment of my creation?

 

[nickjhs]

I wonder if they thanked him for getting them stuck in the first place

Yep this one has always got me. Here we have a supposed that can rescue you from a predicament that it could have prevented and rather than call it a c*** for putting you there in the first place they grovel in their gratitude for their rescue, this is made so much worse when people around you have died, the amount of self importance to believe that God saved you when it allowed so many to die a horrible death and leave so many other families to mourn is breathtaking.

 

[kuzushi]

I wanted to reply to a point someone made, but I can't find the quote and it doesn't matter, I can reply like this without quoting it.
Someone said something like "People believe because they want there to be a God." Well, in some cases that might be true. In my case, I'd be fine either way. I mean, I agree that there is something nice about having a loving creator, but for me the main thing is to know either way. If I knew for a fact that there was no God, I'd adjust to that and get on with it. However, like it or not, I've come to the conclusion that there is a God, and that Christianity is the true religion. This is true independent of whether I like it or not. There are some things about it that I might wish were different. About eternity, I'm OK with the heaven side of things. That's OK, those who make it get to go there and it's going to be great for them. The other side of things I find not so palatable. If it were me, I think I'd go for annihilation for those who don't make it rather than an eternal conscious existence where one is going to be aware forever experiencing the consequences of sin with no hope of redemption. The thing is Jesus doesn't give us that option. People talk about him as if he were some kind of hippy character, but a lot of what he says is not very hippy-like, especially with regard to hell and judgement.

Re the idea that "people believe because they want there to be a God," in fact it seems to me that the reverse is just as much the case. People refuse to believe because they don't want there to be a God. I mean, it's a common observation that one cannot prove a negative. Technically they say that you cannot actually prove anything in fact. Descartes said the only thing one could be absolutely sure of was: "I think therefore I am."

You cannot prove that there is no God, but God can prove (inasmuch as anyone can prove anything) he exists in various ways (such as sending Jesus to die, and then raising him from the dead, for example). So when I say something like "God raised Jesus from the dead," the correct logical reactions can be one of two: Yes, I'm inclined to agree/I'm not sure. The emphatic "No, it's bollox" is not really justifiable. I mean, there is enough evidence to take the idea of the resurrection seriously, there really is, which in itself is amazing. I'm not saying that the evidence is enough to be compelling to everyone, I can accept someone being sceptical, but when people get abusive, and start resorting to ridicule, it just looks like they are failing to grasp to gravity of what we're dealing with and the credibility of the evidence.

 

[kuzushi]

There are some other things that I thing are worth mentioning.
The shroud, morphic resonance, Jordan Peterson.
Whether you believe that the Shroud of Turin is a genuine relic or not, there is absolutely nothing like it in the whole world. No one can explain how the image was formed, no one can replicate it, even today. It's also interesting that the image itself is a photographic negative with 3D information encoded into it. Peter Schumacher, the inventor of the VP-8 image analyzer, used by NASA, became a believer purely based on what he saw when his device was used to scan the image.

 

[beorhthelm]

You cannot prove that there is no God, but God can prove (inasmuch as anyone can prove anything) he exists in various ways (such as sending Jesus to die, and then raising him from the dead, for example). So when I say something like "God raised Jesus from the dead," the correct logical reactions can be one of two: Yes, I'm inclined to agree/I'm not sure. The emphatic "No, it's bollox" is not really justifiable. I mean, there is enough evidence to take the idea of the resurrection seriously, there really is, which in itself is amazing. I'm not saying that the evidence is enough to be compelling to everyone, I can accept someone being sceptical, but when people get abusive, and start resorting to ridicule, it just looks like they are failing to grasp to gravity of what we're dealing with and the credibility of the evidence.

you believe in Odin, Zeus and Vishnu right? other gods you cant disprove. which one was involved in raising Jesus from the dead?

 

[BadFish]

There are some other things that I thing are worth mentioning.
The shroud, morphic resonance, Jordan Peterson.
Whether you believe that the Shroud of Turin is a genuine relic or not, there is absolutely nothing like it in the whole world. No one can explain how the image was formed, no one can replicate it, even today. It's also interesting that the image itself is a photographic negative with 3D information encoded into it. Peter Schumacher, the inventor of the VP-8 image analyzer, used by NASA, became a believer purely based on what he saw when his device was used to scan the image.

Here is an explanation of how it was formed.

Evidence snubbed by famous shroud faithful › [an error occurred while processing this directive] (ABC Science)

And a paper on how two scientist recreated the shroud.

https://www.shroud.com/pdfs/craig.pdf

 

[Bold Seagull]

Perhaps a conscious entity, the one credible form of unifying the infinite realm of possibilities into one single reality, is the only possible way that the coherent universe can exist... So it does.

Such importance placed on our existence, a tiny spec in a minuscule moment in the scale and life of the universe and yet we can draw an abstract conclusion as an absolute statement of fact that an entity must have created it.

 

[kuzushi]

Two things straight

https://www.shroudm/pdfs/craig.pdf

the blood appears red because of bilirubin, and the type of weave matches that found at Masada, the site of the Jewish rebellion of 70AD.

Not able to go through everything right now as I'm not on my laptop.














































































Not at home and my phone is not easy for replying, but your link about the shroud...

OK,