[Football] Chris Kavanagh

[Lady Whistledown]

I'm not excusing what Mitrovic did, I'm just saying it was reaction to the sending off, obviously the other Fulham players have more self control. It was obviously a sending off if it was deliberate, but I don't think it was. It felt like a double punishment, which they have tried to cut down on, with things like goal keepers not being sent off for bringing down the striker when through on goal

The caveat is that the keeper has to have made a genuine attempt to play the ball. If it's viewed as a cynical trip, they will still get a red card. Re Willian, it was viewed that he deliberately tried to prevent a goal with his hand (it's probably instinctive but that's not the referee's problem) so there is no wiggle room there for the ref.

If, say, James Tompkins saved a goal by handling on the line when we were playing Palace, I doubt any of us would be calling for lenience from the officials

 

[Badger Boy]

Completely different scenario. Those are likely to support their own countries therefore it would be entirely inappropriate for them to officiate those games. There is no suggestion WHATSOEVER though, that Chris Kavanagh supports or even gives a single shiny shit about Manchester United. If he was a declared United fan (or a City fan, for that matter, or any other club whose fate might be directly impacted by United's results) then it would be different. But for all we know, the bloke supports Lincoln City or Plymouth Argyle, FFS.

Do you not think if he was a lifelong United fan that somebody might have bubbled him up to the FA or the PGMOL by now? Why would he lie about it? You genuinely think that somebody would work for decades, getting abuse from fat blokes on Sunday league pitches in the pissing rain, dragging yourself to innumerable crap non-league fixtures across the country and driving to places like Exeter and Hartlepool on rainy midweek evenings, just in the hope that you might one day get the opportunity to send off an opponent against your beloved Manchester United? Really?

Why are they more likely to support their own countries than someone is likely to support their own city?

For all we know, Felix Brych or Markus Merk may be staunch Italophiles, zipping wine by day and pouring out peoples beer by night. Put a Basque referee in charge of England vs Spain and there is a fair chance he has a very deep desire for Spain to lose, despite his Spanish nationality.

Patriotism works in different ways in different countries and in many cases also in different regions. Maybe in England, where you certainly do a lot of national pride (which might be what is creating your assumption that a ref's nationality rather than place of birth would affect their potential bias more), regional loyalty is not as strong as in some countries.

Perhaps that is the reason why a referee from Barcelona or Madrid being in charge of a Real Madrid vs Barca game is unimaginable (or a referee from Naples in charge of Napoli vs Palermo; someone would die) while a referee from Manchester being in charge of a decisive game between Manchester City and Arsenal would be considered completely fine. Difficult for me to grasp personally but sure, every country is different.

It's been a good debate to follow between your two postings, but I'm with @edna krabappel on this one for sure. The Professionalism of a referee greatly outweighs any personal feelings for a football club, either pro or con. I don't believe that a referee would deliberately make incorrect decisions or do anything to harm their own career.

That being said, there have been examples of referees making some very unwise and unintelligent public admissions. Mark Clattenburg, a bit of an extreme example due to his fairly unique need to be known, made a bit of a splash with his comments about Chelsea vs Tottenham which crowned Leicester as Champions. He didn't want to send anyone off and didn't want to give any excuses to the Tottenham players for them not winning the game/catching Leicester at the top of the table. Really, there were at least 3/4/5 red cards in that game - it was a proper war. I approved of his refereeing of the game, but there's no doubt he did let his professionalism slip a little bit there.

 

[levs]

The caveat is that the keeper has to have made a genuine attempt to play the ball. If it's viewed as a cynical trip, they will still get a red card. Re Willian, it was viewed that he deliberately tried to prevent a goal with his hand (it's probably instinctive but that's not the referee's problem) so there is no wiggle room there for the ref.

If, say, James Tompkins saved a goal by handling on the line when we were playing Palace, I doubt any of us would be calling for lenience from the officials

But I think it could be argued that Willian tried to play the ball with his knee and kept his hand in a natural position, this is why I don't think it was deliberate handball. Incidents like Luis Suarez in the world cup, are blatant attempt to stop the ball with the hand and deserve a sending off as well as a penalty, my view was that this wasn't deliberate so didn't deserve the double jeopardy. But I think I'm in the minority as most people seem to think it was deliberate

 

[Swansman]

But I think it could be argued that Willian tried to play the ball with his knee and kept his hand in a natural position, this is why I don't think it was deliberate handball. Incidents like Luis Suarez in the world cup, are blatant attempt to stop the ball with the hand and deserve a sending off as well as a penalty, my view was that this wasn't deliberate so didn't deserve the double jeopardy. But I think I'm in the minority as most people seem to think it was deliberate

Agree it wasn't deliberate. Not that it matters much in that situation according to current handball rules.

Tries to get rid of it with his knee. His arm moves unnaturally because I think he realises it's about to hit his arm but he misjudges it and it hits his hand rather than the arm he didn't want it on. Bloke is 35 years old with 700 club apperances and 70 games for Brazil. Of course he knows that if he takes it with his hand in that situation, its a red card and a penalty which is more trouble than the ball just going in the net.

 

[Da Man Clay]

I’m amazed anyone thinks the Willian handball wasn’t deliberate. He throws his arm down directly towards where the ball is travelling. His movement certainly isn’t natural

 

[levs]

Agree it wasn't deliberate. Not that it matters much in that situation according to current handball rules.

Tries to get rid of it with his knee. His arm moves unnaturally because I think he realises it's about to hit his arm but he misjudges it and it hits his hand rather than the arm he didn't want it on. Bloke is 35 years old with 700 club apperances and 70 games for Brazil. Of course he knows that if he takes it with his hand in that situation, its a red card and a penalty which is more trouble than the ball just going in the net.

I don't think his arm moves that unnaturally, actually his other arm is the one thats in an unnatural position. His arms have to go somewhere, you cant defend like Van Dijk in all situations. In real speed I don't think he has the time to think "Oh this might, hit my arm, better move it out the way" and for him to weigh up "having arms or getting sent off" seems like quite a lot to expect in a split second.

 

[Bold Seagull]

I'm not excusing what Mitrovic did, I'm just saying it was reaction to the sending off, obviously the other Fulham players have more self control. It was obviously a sending off if it was deliberate, but I don't think it was. It felt like a double punishment, which they have tried to cut down on, with things like goal keepers not being sent off for bringing down the striker when through on goal

I can't really see a reason your arm would be there, I think in a typical situation trying to control it out on the pitch with your knee your arm would be out of the way.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2023/03/2023-fulhams-willian-appears-handle-804282628.jpg

 

[medwayseagull reborn]

The problem is that the standard set by that ridiculous Soucek decision a few weeks back means that any handball is going to be controversial.

 

[levs]

I can't really see a reason your arm would be there, I think in a typical situation trying to control it out on the pitch with your knee your arm would be out of the way.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2023/03/2023-fulhams-willian-appears-handle-804282628.jpg

Where would your arm be in this situation then? It has to go somewhere. It's reaching a point where defenders aren't allowed to have arms anywhere other than behind their back for fear of a penalty.

But I have said I think it its a penalty because his hand stops a goal, but I think it's less clear whether he moves his hand towards the ball. If anything he is trying to move it out of the way

 

[Bold Seagull]

Where would your arm be in this situation then? It has to go somewhere. It's reaching a point where defenders aren't allowed to have arms anywhere other than behind their back for fear of a penalty.

But I have said I think it its a penalty because his hand stops a goal, but I think it's less clear whether he moves his hand towards the ball. If anything he is trying to move it out of the way

Think it would be vertically downward, bit behind you tbh well out of the way, bit like this skillful women's footballer is demonstrating,...The arm on the same side of the knee would tend to be out of the way. Either that or Willian was trying to pull off a dance move.

 

[levs]

Think it would be vertically downward, bit behind you tbh well out of the way, bit like this skillful women's footballer is demonstrating,...The arm on the same side of the knee would tend to be out of the way. Either that or Willian was trying to pull off a dance move.

I think there's a difference in where your arm would naturally be when trying to control the ball with your knee, when it's coming slowly towards you. Than when you're trying to block with it while running full pelt back to goal.

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

He had a good game.

Threads like this are one of the things that piss me off about modern football. Kavanagh got all the big decisions right. Where you live is largely irrelevant to who you support anyway. Particularly somewhere like Manchester.

 

[Badger Boy]

I can't really see a reason your arm would be there, I think in a typical situation trying to control it out on the pitch with your knee your arm would be out of the way.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2023/03/2023-fulhams-willian-appears-handle-804282628.jpg

Great picture - some of those facial expressions behind the crowd are amazing. And Gianni Infantino just poking his snidey little head up past the advertising is fantastic!

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

You are aware there are more clubs in the Manchester metropolitan area than just Manchester United? How do you know he doesn't support City, or Oldham, or Rochdale, Stockport, Wigan, Hyde United, FCUM, Salford, Bolton, Curzon Ashton, Stalybridge Celtic etc?

Or Brighton, Arsenal, Maidenhead Utd or bloody Fulham.

 

[PILTDOWN MAN]

Or Brighton, Arsenal, Maidenhead Utd or bloody Fulham.

Apparently hasn't reffed Palace according to a newspaper report but can't be bothered to look further

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

The problem is that the standard set by that ridiculous Soucek decision a few weeks back means that any handball is going to be controversial.

Why ? Are you really saying that because one ref makes a particular interpretation then all other refs have to do the same ? Then another one interprets differently and everyone lurches that way instead ? That’s not how it works.

 

[Dick Swiveller]

Great picture - some of those facial expressions behind the crowd are amazing. And Gianni Infantino just poking his snidey little head up past the advertising is fantastic!

Today - I am in Manchester. Today, I am a Chad.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Just not reliable though. Declaring that you support a Premier League team will make it very difficult to get into the Select Group. Lets say you declare you're an Liverpool fan - right now this would pretty much always rule you out of refereeing Liverpool, Everton, Manchester United and right now also Brighton, Fulham, Tottenham, Brentford and Newcastle. If you want to become a professional referee at the highest level, it is going to help a lot to declare that you've dedicated your life to Aberystwyth Town FC.

Disallowing refs from refereeing teams from their own city does not eliminate the chance of ref bias but will likely decrease the risk.

No, spot on. Good points well made.

One thing of which we can be sure, however, is that the Complete and Utter Shyster really does support Tranmere, and not Liverpoo or Evershite.

 

[LamieRobertson]

Just as an aside Kavanagh was the ref in our sixth round tie at Millwall in 2019 when we reached the SF …no idea how he reffed yesterday but if memory serves me correct he and his assistants weren’t that brilliant that day.


Silva seems to be a volatile character judging by what I’ve seen of him on the touch line …and Mitrovic’s action yesterday is unsurprising…….I see both have been charged…..why wasn’t Fernandez a couple of weeks back?

 

[Sirnormangall]

If, say, James Tompkins saved a goal by handling on the line when we were playing Palace, I doubt any of us would be calling for lenience from the officials

I disagree: I’d be calling for lenience on the grounds that Tompkins is completely and utterly useless and has been since (or possibly before) Andone turned him inside out.