[News] China protests over Zero-Covid policy

[The Clamp]

Best guess is that the Chinese government just back off and take a step away from the policy. They are a few years away from completing systems that would make any kind of revolution completely impossible (if you even think about dissent there will be a drone coming around to murder or at least threaten you into submission) and I don't think they're going to risk a civil war or something at this point. But remains to be seen of course.

Well. Not so far. They are doubling down on it.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

You are assuming a lot based on VERY little knowledge of China.

Chinese people are clearly not happy with human rights abuses in exchange for growth. As you claim they are.

I normally agree with you, but not on this occasion. There is nuance here. I don't think anyone said your typical Chinese is happy to have members of their family tortured or killed in exchange for growth. However Chinese people don't go off on one, citywide, if mere hundreds of people are forcibly relocated (to new homes, not to holes in the mud) to facilitate urban expansion/renewal. The latter is a form of human rights abuse, sure, but not all human rights abuses are the same. When I was assaulted by a policeman in 1977 it was a human rights abuse, but I wouldn't equate what happened to me to what happened to the Disappeared in Argentina.

The rumpus in China now is due to the forced lock downs that are needless and are causing great harm to entire cities. Very different gravy. The greater good, here, which the Chinese accept more readily than we do (vide NIMBYism, and the way planners capitulate to it in the UK) is clearly not being served if a whole city is locked down. To protect whom? This is a massive cock up by Xi.

 

[Swansman]

The idea that the rest of the world should turn a blind eye to the treatment of Uyghurs etc because they reckon the Chinese people aren’t fussed about democracy or human rights? Madness. Mada and inaccurate.

Did the Chinese government tell you that? “Oh don’t worry about them, they don’t want human rights and democratic, very pragmatic people you see”.

Mind boggling.

We're good at turning blind eyes at pretty much everything. Should we? Arguably, no. Will we? Absolutely.

Of course the uyghurs want human rights but they're 0.3% of the population. The people in UK detention centres probably also want human rights but very few is going to form an entire political opinion based on how they're doing. And in Sweden the UN has criticised us for not guaranteeing that children aren't discriminated, and some of those children probably want their human rights. But that doesn't mean the average person wants to overthrow the government and change political system... unfortunately.

 

[Swansman]

Well. Not so far. They are doubling down on it.

Yup. If that works, they're happy. But if it doesn't, I think they'll back off. But Xi is not the most predictable politician - I don't think anyone outside the CCP know how they'll deal with the situation.

 

[The Clamp]

I normally agree with you, but not on this occasion. There is nuance here. I don't think anyone said your typical Chinese is happy to have members of their family tortured or killed in exchange for growth. However Chinese people don't go off on one, citywide, if mere hundreds of people are forcibly relocated (to new homes, not to holes in the mud) to facilitate urban expansion/renewal. The latter is a form of human rights abuse, sure, but not all human rights abuses are the same. When I was assaulted by a policeman in 1977 it was a human rights abuse, but I wouldn't equate what happened to me to what happened to the Disappeared in Argentina.

The rumpus in China now is due to the forced lock downs that are needless and are causing great harm to entire cities. Very different gravy. The greater good, here, which the Chinese accept more readily than we do (vide NIMBYism, and the way planners capitulate to it in the UK) is clearly not being served if a whole city is locked down. To protect whom? This is a massive cock up by Xi.

Things like relocation aren’t necessarily human rights abuses. It’s standard when buying or renting a property in China that you acknowledge you can be relocated for certain reasons but you will be given a similar or better property and the opportunity to be assigned similar work if you wish to relocate your work as well.

It’s not ideal but it’s not something to protest over. If you don’t like it, you find a place that is unlikely to be subject to a CPO or equivalent.

Having said that, I do agree that Chinese citizens probably do put up with more than we would. I am not sure that is an argument for the way China treat their citizens.

 

[Swansman]

I’m sure you do think you have decent knowledge of China. You think that about everything.

We’ve seen very little large scale protest in China because they shoot people who protest and drive tanks at them. Jesus wept.

Don't you see the irony in saying that I believe that I'm "all-knowing" and so forth, while in the next sentence claim to know it all?

 

[vegster]

Bit in the shadow of... everything else, but nonetheless interesting. You have to mess pretty hard with the Chinese for them to go out and protest and destroy testing booths and scream for freedom and shit.

Wonder what it could mean for Chinese political stability? Will be interesting to follow, pretty big thingie after all that could have consequences for all of us.

Thank goodness that The Range has already got its Christmas crap in to stores before this blew up.

 

[The Clamp]

Don't you see the irony in saying that I believe that I'm "all-knowing" and so forth, while in the next sentence claim to know it all?

Where have I claimed to know it all? I know a bit about China, having family there but by no means know it all.

It’s pretty obvious to anyone what happens to Chinese citizens who protest. Hardly a know it all.

 

[Swansman]

Where have I claimed to know it all? I know a bit about China, having family there but by no means know it all.

Ok fair enough. When did I claim to know it all then? Since you accused me of that.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

We're good at turning blind eyes at pretty much everything. Should we? Arguably, no. Will we? Absolutely.

Of course the uyghurs want human rights but they're 0.3% of the population. The people in UK detention centres probably also want human rights but very few is going to form an entire political opinion based on how they're doing. And in Sweden the UN has criticised us for not guaranteeing that children are discriminated, and some of those children probably want their human rights. But that doesn't mean the average person wants to overthrow the government and change political system... unfortunately.

We differ primarily in terms of our preferred means to the ends, I suspect.

I still like The Vote, but I understand the possibilities that having a big social media may bring. I'm very interested to see how much power the like of Musk (and Trump again) and others I have never heard of but who have billions of followers among the young (which, to me, is the under 60s) will exert.

My ex-wife used to say that democracy is outmoded (she was a hippy in the 60s) and, oddly, I am now coming round to her way of thinking, (albeit from the other side of the sphere). OK we will still have The Vote but the impact of the new influencers who are without the same clear provenance of the influencers of the past (media moguls with a transparent agenda) is interesting, and some seem to be mainly interested in disruptive change - the mechanism so popular with new technologists.

Interesting times....perhaps all times are interesting at the time.

 

[The Clamp]

Ok fair enough. When did I claim to know it all then? Since you accused me of that.

You are consistently claiming to know more about every situation because “you don’t look at it through a western bias” or some such claim.

 

[The Clamp]

Righto, I’m off to get ready for shift. Thanks for today, most enjoyable.

 

[Swansman]

You are consistently claiming to know more about every situation because “you don’t look at it through a western bias” or some such claim.

And you are consistently claiming to know more about every situation because you don't agree with me

 

[Swansman]

Righto, I’m off to get ready for shift. Thanks for today, most enjoyable.

Good luck. Serve them burgers with a smile on your face.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Things like relocation aren’t necessarily human rights abuses. It’s standard when buying or renting a property in China that you acknowledge you can be relocated for certain reasons but you will be given a similar or better property and the opportunity to be assigned similar work if you wish to relocate your work as well.

It’s not ideal but it’s not something to protest over. If you don’t like it, you find a place that is unlikely to be subject to a CPO or equivalent.

Having said that, I do agree that Chinese citizens probably do put up with more than we would. I am not sure that is an argument for the way China treat their citizens.

Indeed. But imposing our value system on another culture is arrogant. I think that the heat in this thread is missplaced. I don't think there is much disagreement between posters, on the whole, except from those who imagine that China will never be free until it has western-style democracy.

 

[The Clamp]

Good luck. Serve them burgers with a smile on your face.

 

[The Clamp]

Indeed. But imposing our value system on another culture is arrogant. I think that the heat in this thread is missplaced. I don't think there is much disagreement between posters, on the whole, except from those who imagine that China will never be free until it has western-style democracy.

Nobody imagines that. You’re better than that kind of remark.

 

[beorhthelm]

Yeah I'm giving them a "free pass" (in the sense that I accept it; I certainly don't like it) because they, unlike us, are not bragging about their great "human rights". They are pragmatic and it is working for them and it causes good things (they actually make things happen which often improves the life of the avg Chinese) and it causes bad things (they don't want disruption in their development so they don't really allow dissent at certain levels).

They are a sovereign country and don't have to conform to anything. Of course we could punish them and try to push them in another direction. The problem is that if we would, for instance, stop trading with China, the consequences for us will most likely be worse than it will be for them.

Reality:
- Western governments have no problems with China ignoring human rights issues. They have money and things and thats all our governments care about.
- Western people have no problems with China ignoring human rights issues. They're producing some fancy new remote control to the TV and plastic toys and shit and we feel we need that more than we need human rights in China, so we keep supporting their finances and ways of doing things.
- Chinese people seem to have very little problems with China ignoring human rights issues. Most of them get more money and better standards of living every year and are probably busy living their lives rather than yearning to safe the Uyghurs or to be able to critisise the state putting food on their tables. As we see with Covid protests now, they've always had a choice/potential (with potential dire consequences of course) to protest... they've just not been bothered enough.

The amount of people who give a shit about human rights in China appears to be the worst treated tenth or so of their population, some human rights organisations no one listens to, and Westerners who pretend to give a shit a couple of hours a year or so. So technically speaking - why would they have to change? They've not made any promises and very few really give a shit about what they do or don't do as long as that Made in China-tool is arriving cheaply and on time.

by that measure those actions abroad that benefit the lives of westerner are ok?
i get it, issues in China are below your line, why then make such a big stand on what the west may do or has done in the past?

 

[Randy McNob]

Where have I claimed to know it all? I know a bit about China, having family there but by no means know it all.

It’s pretty obvious to anyone what happens to Chinese citizens who protest. Hardly a know it all.

I've also been to China many times and I don't see people oppressed or living in poverty, they have a decent standard of living like any other modern country. The negative news reports you hear are exagerated and blown out of proportion. They can just as easy criticise us for having more food banks than Mcdonalds and voting to pose economic sanctions on ourselves with a government who pretend it's good for us with politicians who's every second word is a lie

 

[Swansman]

by that measure those actions abroad that benefit the lives of westerner are ok?
i get it, issues in China are below your line, why then make such a big stand on what the west may do or has done in the past?

I dont think they are no, most people do think its completely acceptable however - even defending it.
I'm not ashamed of what China does in China or elsewhere. I am ashamed of what Sweden with European brothers are doing abroad, because we often sit on our high horses pretending we aren't doing anything bad, and that we're supposedly electing our governments - making us responsible for what we do elsewhere.