[Albion] Charlton's Cat 2 academy has generated transfers of £50m in 4 years

[Ninja Elephant]

Which, if that is the case, is very good business. But you can't tell me that he was one of "our youngsters", or a product of the BHA academy. He patently wasn't, he was already 21 when he arrived, and barely here a year, so grandstanding that as some kind of feather in the cap for Lancing is (frankly) bobbins.

He's an example of the good business being done by the club. I know so many people struggle to understand the desire to sign players for smaller fees than we're going to sell them for, but it's good business being done by the club across the board. Mac Allister and Tau may baffle some, but it should be very clear what the intention is there. Disagree with the philosophy all you want, but ultimately, if the club can turn a nice profit on players without them ever playing for us, where's the downside? The academy will justify itself, this summer it's showing that to be the case and it'll be even better next summer, and so on.

Let me ask you this - what will you be happy with from the academy?

 

[Easy 10]

Christ. Some of these morons who want youngsters to take over the first team. Have a day off.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Who said anything about FLOODING the 1st team with youngsters ? No Premier League clubs do that (with the one notable exception of a certain team in 1999). But there are plenty of examples of the odd teen or youngster under the age of 23, who have been given their chance, come in and done well at the very top level, and gone on from there. I hardly need to list them.

Last season, only Watford and Chelsea fielded a higher average age in their starting lineups than our own, which was 29.4. (lowest was Soton at 24.4). Old Man Murray will have boosted that for us, but we really need to see one or two products from our U23's being given their wings at BHA. And thats clearly the long-term plan, with DA and GP being brought in. But its a real eye-opener seeing a club like Charlton so far ahead of the curve right now than we are in that respect.

 

[Kinky Gerbil]

Charlton will always hoover up the players not deemed good enough for the bigger clubs in the area.

Which is proving very profitable

 

[Easy 10]

He's an example of the good business being done by the club. I know so many people struggle to understand the desire to sign players for smaller fees than we're going to sell them for, but it's good business being done by the club across the board. Mac Allister and Tau may baffle some, but it should be very clear what the intention is there. Disagree with the philosophy all you want, but ultimately, if the club can turn a nice profit on players without them ever playing for us, where's the downside? The academy will justify itself, this summer it's showing that to be the case and it'll be even better next summer, and so on.

Let me ask you this - what will you be happy with from the academy?

If we somehow almost doubled up on the investment in Aleš Matějů then it clearly is good financial business by the club, I'm not disputing that, and its another potential revenue stream which we should look to exploit. But he wasn't a product of BHA.

What I will be happy with from the academy is when I see a teenager come through the ranks here, at OUR academy, and break into the 1st team squad. Not some 20 year-old from Romania who we've taken a punt on. I want to see someone who has been nurtured and progressed under the watchful eye of the BHA coaches through his teens, and who the manager sees and thinks "he's good enough for me to give him his chance".

Outside of Dunk, in the current Amex era, thats just not yet happened. I'm starting to wonder if our catchment area basically doesn't produce the production line of youngsters who we can mould and harvest in this way. Maybe the urban streets of London is simply a richer seam of talent that can be harvested - the example of Charlton would seem to back that up.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

It is always comedy to see a bucket of boiling piss being thrown, on this occasion by [MENTION=29779]Whitechapel[/MENTION], and it did make me smile, but I think that [MENTION=70]Easy 10[/MENTION] didn't really mean to suggest that we do our local scouting from the creosoted home changing hut at Easthill Park (if it is still standing). If I may re-imagine him:

For a shit club run by a drivelling thundercunt, Charlton seem to have done quite well with their academy (albeit the best boys have been sold on). I wonder if there is anything we might learn from them (notwithstanding that our situation and requirements are very different from Charlton's)?

For my next trick, I will be negotiating a soft warm Brexit.






Oh, hang on, not while my ******** points downward....

 

[Whitechapel]

Well, lots and lots of "apparently's" and "discussed as £45m targets" and "massive championship interest in", so its HOPEFULLY all in the pipeline as jam tomorrow - but as we speak, we're still waiting.

I suppose two is lots, yeah. You’d nearly need half a hand to count all of them. The Connolly part comes from Brian Owen earlier today, and the Dunk/45M stuff has been mentioned a couple of times on here. Both seem fair points to make

And as for Aleš Matějů - lets get this right. We signed him for £2.25m in August 2017 as a 21 year old. He stayed here a season (making those 2 appearances) before being loaned out to Brescia in July 2018 for a year. Then he signed for them permanently earlier this month. I haven't seen a fee mentioned, but his estimated market value on https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/ales-mateju/profil/spieler/242078 (usually fairly reliable) is around £1.5m, which for a bloke who's played 2 games seems more realistic, so I don't know where you're getting £5m from. But if we broke even on our £2m+ outlay we've done pretty well. Regardless of that anyway, you can hardly call him a product of the BHA academy, when he was already 21 when he arrived and only here for a year. Thats clearly NOT been the Charlton model that I'm talking about.

We signed Mateju for the development squad, and after a year here we loaned him out with a view to a permanent move. Semantics or not, he’s a development squad player who developed enough for us to make a profit on him. As for saying we sold him for 5m, that fee was widely reported on here and Twitter when he went to Brescia on loan last year, and was spoke about again on here this summer.

https://nortr3nixy.nimpr.uk/showthread.php?373850-Mateju

Trying to base the transfer fee on the market value given by transfermarkt is absolutely ridiculous btw. Literally 30 seconds of checking could show this up as completely idiotic and that they’re nowhere near “fairly reliable” Using our signings this summer alone would prove that point. All the figures taken from their website:

Trossard: Market Value £14,000,000 - Transfer Fee £18,000,000
Clarke: Market Value £180,000 - Transfer Fee £3,510,000.

I can go on with examples from every other club in the Prem if you like? Maybe our signings from last season? Claiming they’re fairly reliable isn’t even clutching at straws. It’s going to the toilet hoping to shit out straws you can clutch.

Perhaps I am being impatient. But unlike Charlton, we've thrown MULTI-MILLIONS at this over the last 6-7 years both in setting up infrastructure and in signings, and so far we've had precious little to show for it.

You’re either being impatient or dumb. Charlton couldn’t be any more different to us if they tried.

We’re talking about a team who in the early 2000’s had an excellent youth academy that churned out decent players. Not world beaters, but good solid prem players. Richard Rufus, Muzzy Izzet, Paul Konchesky, Scott Parker, Kevin Lisbie, Johnathon Fortune etc etc. We were stuck in athletics track hoping Will Peckham and Dan Marney could step up.

Their academy doesn’t go away, and being able to point to so many success stories makes them a pull still. I’m fact they’re a club where the quality of youth facilities has quite rapidly outgrown their stature in the football league. This, coupled with owners who don’t want to put a penny in to the club also allows a very easy, clear direct path from U-18 to full time. Roland Duchatelet knows their youth set-up is still excellent so he forces managers in to a situation where throwing in a youth team star is there only option.

Some float to the top and get sold on, a lot of them aren’t good enough and find themselves shipped out. For every Konsa there’s half a dozen Harry Lennons or Josh Unmerah. The established youth network and set-up they had is making sure the hits are just about frequent enough that a good manager can get some results, but they’re not Barcelona mkII

I hope all your 'apparentlys' and 'discussed as' talk eventually bear fruit, and maybe they will in time. But Charlton are clearly doing something bloody amazing, and I can't see how it wouldn't harm to see what their methods are, because they're clearly doing something right.

Charlton are doing something bloody amazing, you’re right.

However as their methods are “rely on an existing framework which includes solid links with prominent local clubs like Senrab; whilst throwing any half decent young player in to the first team instantly because their chairman is extensively asset stripping the club and won’t spend a penny.” Id actually quite like us to not follow their methods if it’s okay with you.

 

[Easy 10]

I suppose two is lots, yeah. You’d nearly need half a hand to count all of them. The Connolly part comes from Brian Owen earlier today, and the Dunk/45M stuff has been mentioned a couple of times on here. Both seem fair points to make






We signed Mateju for the development squad, and after a year here we loaned him out with a view to a permanent move. Semantics or not, he’s a development squad player who developed enough for us to make a profit on him. As for saying we sold him for 5m, that fee was widely reported on here and Twitter when he went to Brescia on loan last year, and was spoke about again on here this summer.

https://nortr3nixy.nimpr.uk/showthread.php?373850-Mateju

Trying to base the transfer fee on the market value given by transfermarkt is absolutely ridiculous btw. Literally 30 seconds of checking could show this up as completely idiotic and that they’re nowhere near “fairly reliable” Using our signings this summer alone would prove that point. All the figures taken from their website:

Trossard: Market Value £14,000,000 - Transfer Fee £18,000,000
Clarke: Market Value £180,000 - Transfer Fee £3,510,000.

I can go on with examples from every other club in the Prem if you like? Maybe our signings from last season? Claiming they’re fairly reliable isn’t even clutching at straws. It’s going to the toilet hoping to shit out straws you can clutch.



You’re either being impatient or dumb. Charlton couldn’t be any more different to us if they tried.

We’re talking about a team who in the early 2000’s had an excellent youth academy that churned out decent players. Not world beaters, but good solid prem players. Richard Rufus, Muzzy Izzet, Paul Konchesky, Scott Parker, Kevin Lisbie, Johnathon Fortune etc etc. We were stuck in athletics track hoping Will Peckham and Dan Marney could step up.

Their academy doesn’t go away, and being able to point to so many success stories makes them a pull still. I’m fact they’re a club where the quality of youth facilities has quite rapidly outgrown their stature in the football league. This, coupled with owners who don’t want to put a penny in to the club also allows a very easy, clear direct path from U-18 to full time. Roland Duchatelet knows their youth set-up is still excellent so he forces managers in to a situation where throwing in a youth team star is there only option.

Some float to the top and get sold on, a lot of them aren’t good enough and find themselves shipped out. For every Konsa there’s half a dozen Harry Lennons or Josh Unmerah. The established youth network and set-up they had is making sure the hits are just about frequent enough that a good manager can get some results, but they’re not Barcelona mkII



Charlton are doing something bloody amazing, you’re right.

However as their methods are “rely on an existing framework which includes solid links with prominent local clubs like Senrab; whilst throwing any half decent young player in to the first team instantly because their chairman is extensively asset stripping the club and won’t spend a penny.” Id actually quite like us to not follow their methods if it’s okay with you.

Player valuations these days are just completely and utterly FUBAR now, so you're always going to get large aberrations here and there wherever you look, from the comical SEGW saga to the bonkers £80m being banded around for Maguire. The fact that even small clubs like Crystal Palace can hold out or just say "no" to monumental offers has warped the entire market.

The fact that Charlton have little choice but to fast-track some of their academy products into their 1st team is a far point - but then look at what some of them have gone on to do. Surely that only further emphasises the point that the cream of our crop should be getting a chance too. And no, I don't mean chucking 3 or 4 of our U23's into the starting XI. We're not being asset-stripped, so we're obviously not forced into needing to do that. But 1 or 2 of the most promising ones should be gradually getting gametime in the first XI soon, otherwise whats the point.

We obviously don't want to follow CAFC's methods in terms of how they are run as a football club, I was hardly claiming that. But isn't it rather arrogant to assume there is absolutely nothing we could learn from their academy setup and methods, given the spectacular results they've had from it over the years DESPITE having inferior CAT 2 facilities, a club regularly in crisis under a dogshit owner, and more competition for youngsters in their region ?

I suppose with our plush CAT 1 academy though, we must already know it all and would have nothing to learn from little old Charlton.

 

[Da Man Clay]

Weird time for this thread with a load of our youngsters playing in the championship this year. We have been around 5 or so years with the academy. Absolutely nothing really. It’s pretty clear our set up is starting to pay dividends.

Charlton youth academy has been around decades producing players. Do you not think their academy and others were ones we would have visited before deciding on the structure of ours? We wouldn’t have gone merrily off and just had a stab in the dark about how it should be run.

 

[Not Andy Naylor]

You’re either being impatient or dumb. Charlton couldn’t be any more different to us if they tried.

We’re talking about a team who in the early 2000’s had an excellent youth academy that churned out decent players. Not world beaters, but good solid prem players. Richard Rufus, Muzzy Izzet, Paul Konchesky, Scott Parker, Kevin Lisbie, Johnathon Fortune etc etc. We were stuck in athletics track hoping Will Peckham and Dan Marney could step up.

Their academy doesn’t go away, and being able to point to so many success stories makes them a pull still. I’m fact they’re a club where the quality of youth facilities has quite rapidly outgrown their stature in the football league. This, coupled with owners who don’t want to put a penny in to the club also allows a very easy, clear direct path from U-18 to full time. Roland Duchatelet knows their youth set-up is still excellent so he forces managers in to a situation where throwing in a youth team star is there only option.

Some float to the top and get sold on, a lot of them aren’t good enough and find themselves shipped out. For every Konsa there’s half a dozen Harry Lennons or Josh Unmerah. The established youth network and set-up they had is making sure the hits are just about frequent enough that a good manager can get some results, but they’re not Barcelona mkII



Charlton are doing something bloody amazing, you’re right.

However as their methods are “rely on an existing framework which includes solid links with prominent local clubs like Senrab; whilst throwing any half decent young player in to the first team instantly because their chairman is extensively asset stripping the club and won’t spend a penny.” Id actually quite like us to not follow their methods if it’s okay with you.

When did Muzzy Izzet play for Charlton? I know he played for Senrab and was at Chelsea as a schoolboy before being loaned to Leicester. But Charlton?

Speaking of the Addicks, one factor in the success of their youth policy while they were in the Premier League was Jimmy Hampson, a scout who was later tempted away to West Ham by Harry Redknapp. At that point the Charlton production line slowed down somewhat while West Ham's sped up. Hampson eventually became Joe Cole's agent.

But if there's one thing that studying academies proves, it's that throwing money at them doesn't guarantee anything. Cash, scouts, coaches, good administrators all help, of course, but sometimes there are periods when talent is thin on the ground or gets spotted by rivals first. Look at Southampton - a few years ago they'd discovered an inexhaustible supply of young players and then it dried up, without them doing much different. It's not as if a certain number of brilliant footballers are born every year and spread evenly throughout certain cities or countries.

 

[Beanstalk]

This is a very valid point, chaps. Very few teenagers get a chance in Premier League sides, as the stakes are so high. Wan-Bissaka wasn't rated that highly in Palace's academy: his first team bow came out of necessity rather than choice, after all their other full backs got injured. Worked out very well for the lad: he obviously grabbed his chance. But his promotion was hardly the result of a calculated strategy by Roy Hodgson to give opportunities to youngsters.

Southampton have got a few through over the years, I guess, then there's Dwight McNeil at Burnley, but not many others.

If a player can come through an academy and go straight into a Premier League side, chances are they are not going to be for sale. United were only able to buy Wan-Bissaka by offering an un-rejectable amount of money (more than a million per palace appearance). McNeil is on the radar of Spurs and Juventus according to The Guardian and Burnley will rightly get their money's worth if he goes. No PL team is ever going to be forced to sell because of their finances without the TV deal imploding (but that's not going to happen).

I really don't get the impatience around the academy. Our model is very different to Charlton. Ours requires one player every 5 or so years - probably Dunk or March in reality - for it to make a profit. The reality is, we don't want or need to sell at the moment, as is evident with a player such as Walton. He has clear potential to be a PL keeper and we clearly see the bigger monetary benefit of holding onto players like this either to make a larger profit in the long run, or to become a first team player (and if successful make a Butland/Pickford profit). Charlton, the OP's heralded example, did the opposite with Nick Pope, sold for £3million, probably worth £25/30million now. If they had the foresight to see that their academy product would become one of the top three keepers in the country they probably would've demanded more. However, their model is about turning quick profits to contribute to running costs so selling is everything to a club like Charlton.

TLDR; the academies are not even comparable in terms of models, let alone everything else mentioned in this thread.

 

[Whitechapel]

When did Muzzy Izzet play for Charlton? I know he played for Senrab and was at Chelsea as a schoolboy before being loaned to Leicester. But Charlton?

Speaking of the Addicks, one factor in the success of their youth policy while they were in the Premier League was Jimmy Hampson, a scout who was later tempted away to West Ham by Harry Redknapp. At that point the Charlton production line slowed down somewhat while West Ham's sped up. Hampson eventually became Joe Cole's agent.

But if there's one thing that studying academies proves, it's that throwing money at them doesn't guarantee anything. Cash, scouts, coaches, good administrators all help, of course, but sometimes there are periods when talent is thin on the ground or gets spotted by rivals first. Look at Southampton - a few years ago they'd discovered an inexhaustible supply of young players and then it dried up, without them doing much different. It's not as if a certain number of brilliant footballers are born every year and spread evenly throughout certain cities or countries.

Him and his brother were both at Charlton at youth level after Senrab.

Muzzy was then poached by Chelsea before being loaned and then sold to Leicester. His brother stayed at Charlton but never broke through before ending up at Colchester

 

[cuthbert]

Come o it's not been all bad Harding, Elphick, Cook and Hammond all had decent careers even if we didn't get the fees we should have done in some cases.

 

[Napper]

Time and luck . Under Wilkins didn’t we field something like 6 home growns one game ? No way was our academy back then anything to be a benchmark for .

We’ve now put the time in and results are coming . You always need some luck .

Hopefully we are due a purple patch which many clubs go through

 

[dazzer6666]

Player valuations these days are just completely and utterly FUBAR now, so you're always going to get large aberrations here and there wherever you look, from the comical SEGW saga to the bonkers £80m being banded around for Maguire. The fact that even small clubs like Crystal Palace can hold out or just say "no" to monumental offers has warped the entire market.

The fact that Charlton have little choice but to fast-track some of their academy products into their 1st team is a far point - but then look at what some of them have gone on to do. Surely that only further emphasises the point that the cream of our crop should be getting a chance too. And no, I don't mean chucking 3 or 4 of our U23's into the starting XI. We're not being asset-stripped, so we're obviously not forced into needing to do that. But 1 or 2 of the most promising ones should be gradually getting gametime in the first XI soon, otherwise whats the point.

We obviously don't want to follow CAFC's methods in terms of how they are run as a football club, I was hardly claiming that. But isn't it rather arrogant to assume there is absolutely nothing we could learn from their academy setup and methods, given the spectacular results they've had from it over the years DESPITE having inferior CAT 2 facilities, a club regularly in crisis under a dogshit owner, and more competition for youngsters in their region ?

I suppose with our plush CAT 1 academy though, we must already know it all and would have nothing to learn from little old Charlton.

Our last manager wasn’t prepared to give even the cream of the crop a sniff - seems very likely this was a significant factor in him losing his job. Looks at this stage at least that GP has a very different approach.

 

[Justice]

Our last manager wasn’t prepared to give even the cream of the crop a sniff - seems very likely this was a significant factor in him losing his job. Looks at this stage at least that GP has a very different approach.

He wasn’t really in a position to risk a youngster. If we had hit 40 points earlier then maybe he would have.

 

[Gritt23]

F*cking hell, the lengths some people will go to so they can have a little pop at the club.

Let’s ignore White, Molumby, Walton, Gyokeres & Ostigard who will all be playing in the second tier this season. Let’s ignore the massive Championship interest in Connolly; the U-23 POTS for the whole league. Let’s ignore one of our youth graduates being discussed as a £45m+ transfer target. Let’s ignore the fact than in less than a decade our youth scouting team has gone from a couple of blokes going round Sussex parks trying to find someone to a massive team that picks up the lines of Mlakar; an apparently championship quality player for what is extensively peanuts in the grand scheme of things. Let’s ignore the fact our second highest transfer fee received ever is for a RB who played 2 games for our first team.

Let’s ignore all of that and wonder what we can learn from a championship/L1 yo-yo club who have to rely on their well established youth team to plug gaps in their squad that their asset stripping owner won’t pay to replace. Christ.

A lot of good potential, no doubt about it, but I think the point the OP is making is that Charlton are doing something right because they are producing all this without spending the money we are. They are doing it as a Cat B academy, and are picking up local kids and developing them, whereas we are spending millions bringing in the best we can identify from around Europe and beyond.

I read it more as praise for what Charlton do, and how we should, with the money and the better facilities be able to produce "Charlton Plus" in some way. Credit to Charlton, and perhaps there is a lesson or two to be learned from them for a lot of clubs. Not picking holes in what we're doing, just praising what they've done, and it shows what can be done if you get it right.

Hopefully we do get there. At the moment it's largely ifs, buts, and maybes.

 

[chaileyjem]

I read it more as praise for what Charlton do, and ...perhaps there is a lesson or two to be learned from them for a lot of clubs. Not picking holes in what we're doing, .

In the follow up post the OP has another dig at Albion for some reason saying it’s beyond us to be aware of what Charlton are doing or their players (the idea of the Albion academy teams not tracking the other south London clubs/set ups is risible and implies they have no idea what they’re doing.)

 

[hans kraay fan club]

In the follow up post the OP has another dig at Albion for some reason saying it’s beyond us to be aware of what Charlton are doing or their players (the idea of the Albion academy teams not tracking the other south London clubs/set ups is risible and implies they have no idea what they’re doing.)

We have our own satellite academy IN South London. We're not stupid.

What IS stupid is [MENTION=70]Easy 10[/MENTION] claim of Charlton's list realising 'transfer fees of £50m' - reached by counting BOTH transfers of Lookman, which is plainly utterly ridiculous.

 

[Easy 10]

We have our own satellite academy IN South London. We're not stupid.

What IS stupid is [MENTION=70]Easy 10[/MENTION] claim of Charlton's list realising 'transfer fees of £50m' - reached by counting BOTH transfers of Lookman, which is plainly utterly ridiculous.

Why ?

The thread title states that their youth products have generated transfer fees of £50m over the last 4 years. What exactly is wrong about that ?

 

[hans kraay fan club]

Why ?

The thread title states that their youth products have generated transfer fees of £50m over the last 4 years. What exactly is wrong about that ?

Because they didn't sell Lookman for £11m AND £22m did they, FFS?

When Maguire moves to United for £80m will that be £100m in fees that the Sheffield United academy has generated?