[Albion] Changing The System

[perseus]

I would like to see a 4 - 1 - 4 - 1 setup ... Stephens as a holding mid to protect the CB's with two of the other mid-fielders in front of him with freedom to join the attacks with the wingers & FB's playing similar to the 4 4 1 1 system ... may sound even more defensive but IMHO frees up the central midfield to push forward more often in support
could also back fire of course but in seems in the past we have been out numbered in the centre areas

Poyet did that. And Oscar Garcia countered other teams that play a single player in front of the back four. A half astute opposing player can bypass the single midfielder in front of the back four by an accurate long pass as the single midfielder cannot get near to covering the whole pitch.

One way we can get close is by using a 4-3-3 with the central midfielder dropping back to make two in front of the back four and converting to 4-2-3-1. In the classic 4-3-3 I was taught in the sixties (by Mike Smith who became manager of Wales), the central midfielder covers a diagonal on the field from the old left half position to inside right, thus covering the optimum area of the pitch.

 

[drew]

It was not our six man defence that let us down away from home in open play last season (with two games to go we had the best defence from open play bar none) ,

Deep defence runs the risk of own goals, more set pieces conceded, more own goals and more bad luck under pressure.

I like the Liverpool formation at home to the likes of West Ham and the other dozen clubs

Who scored our ten away goals last season? From memory a March header and Murray and Izzy mostly.

The defence may have been the best in open play but that avoids the fact we went through a period of conceding easily from set pieces! You can't select certain areas and ignore others.

Fact is the system failed last year and has started badly this year. We had the worst away record last year and no one scored fewer away goals than us. Common sense dictates that you need to change it. At Watford, even before Bruno went off, they were better than us.

 

[perseus]

The defence may have been the best in open play but that avoids the fact we went through a period of conceding easily from set pieces! You can't select certain areas and ignore others.

Fact is the system failed last year and has started badly this year. We had the worst away record last year and no one scored fewer away goals than us. Common sense dictates that you need to change it. At Watford, even before Bruno went off, they were better than us.

Open play conceding few indicates that the formation is working in defence.
However, it is probably at the price of conceding too many set pieces. And being too deep to mount any sustained attacks.
Set piece conceding will happen whatever formation.

Changing the formation reads like getting rid of what works with no guarantee we would suddenly start scoring goals.

It looked like on my stream that all Stephens had to was to make a straightforward pass into the net.
The game switched when Bruno went off. We edged possession before.

I thought our style was more proactive than last season for 25 minutes, although the same thing happened at Leicester last season in much the same way.

 

[perseus]

If we are going to play that way away from home we have to have a lot of pace across the front line. Yesterday we had zero pace... we need some of Jose, Ali, Andone, Locadia and Bissouma playing.

I was thinking that and as I did Warren has saying the same on Seagulls Player

 

[OzMike]

It clearly worked well, you admit as much. It worked well away from home as we got enough points to stay up.
If we stay up it works.

But wouldn't you like more than to just stay up, or is that still too soon ?

 

[perseus]

But wouldn't you like more than to just stay up, or is that still too soon ?

I think it is sound foundations based on a strong defence. Pity about the set pieces. That is really annoying.

 

[drew]

Open play conceding few indicates that the formation is working in defence.
However, it is probably at the price of conceding too many set pieces. And being too deep to mount any sustained attacks.
Set piece conceding will happen whatever formation.

Changing the formation reads like getting rid of what works with no guarantee we would suddenly start scoring goals.

It looked like on my stream that all Stephens had to was to make a straightforward pass into the net.
The game switched when Bruno went off. We edged possession before.

I thought our style was more proactive than last season for 25 minutes, although the same thing happened at Leicester last season in much the same way.

Well I disagree about us being more proactive for the first 25. It certainly didn't help with Bruno going off but having watched the same system at the away games I went to last season and of course on Saturday we were predictable.

You pick out that the defence may be working however there is more to football than defence. You need to score to win games and when you concede you need to score at least one to get a point. How many times last season away did we come back from a goal down? Not once. How many times when we were chasing the game did we change tactics in good time to give us a chance? Chuck in the fact that we dropped 7 points when losing the lead away from home.

In respect of Stephens chance, it was a little more than just passing it into the net! Not sure how you can compare our game at Leicester when we went behind in the first minute and were chasing the game. The subs were like for like with Hemed playing up top and Knockhaert replacing Gross.

The other downside of having such a rigid approach is that the home team know exactly how we are going to play!

You say set piece conceding will happen whatever the formation and I agree to a certain extent but we were particularly bad at for quite a period last year.

 

[drew]

It clearly worked well, you admit as much. It worked well away from home as we got enough points to stay up.
If we stay up it works.

How on earth can you say that. What kept us up was our home form. Everyone else in the division did better than us away from home, more points than us and, apart from WBA, scored more goals than us.

 

[Kneon Light]

How on earth can you say that. What kept us up was our home form. Everyone else in the division did better than us away from home, more points than us and, apart from WBA, scored more goals than us.

Agreed - I find it really strange though how the same team/formation can work SO well and home but SO badly away

 

[Barham's tash]

Can’t read whole thread but the problem isn’t the system it’s the personnel.

Starting with basically the same XI as last season and expecting a different result was shear folly from CH.

With our new recruits up to tactical and fitness speed I strongly expect our 4-5-1/4-3-3 when attacking away formation to be the following:

Ryan
Bernardo (FB/WB)
Dunk
Balogun
Montoya (FB/WB)

Izqueirdo/March
Pröpper
Stephens
Bissouma/Groß
Ali J/Knockaert

Andone/Locadia

Take out or alternate use of Groß/Stephens with Bissouma/Pröpper the CM mainstays and switch Murray for pacier options, with our quickest wingers constantly on the pitch - whether that’s Izqueirdo/Ali J from the start and AK for either of them on tiredness and it’s a totally different proposition than Saturday which was slow, ponderous and without an outlet ball...

FWIW and I know it’s on the wrong thread the problems Saturday were:

1. Using March as the outlet ball because Murray/Groß aren’t quick enough - he didn’t take his man on, create space for others or link up play.
2. I saw Stephens/Pröpper/AK all at various times in the first half with hands raised asking others to move/create options for them. We got snuffed our in midfield. Introduction of Bissouma earlier would have solved this.


The solutions should have been:

1. Withdraw March for Bissouma earlier - probably at half time and do the following-

3 man midfield with Groß replacing March out wide until we wanted to introduce AJ (or not at all). Groß has the technique to receive the ball outwide, hold it up and bring other players in, which with Bissouma Driving forward would have still left adequate protection on the break.

2. Switch Murray for Locadia - controversial perhaps as the early loss of Bruno meant not being able to bring on Ali J BUT Locadia def has more pace than Murray, would have stretched their defence more.

I’ve calmed down a bit and understand why we made the different subs but it’s still so frustrating.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[perseus]

Well I disagree about us being more proactive for the first 25. It certainly didn't help with Bruno going off but having watched the same system at the away games I went to last season and of course on Saturday we were predictable.

You pick out that the defence may be working however there is more to football than defence. You need to score to win games and when you concede you need to score at least one to get a point. How many times last season away did we come back from a goal down? Not once. How many times when we were chasing the game did we change tactics in good time to give us a chance? Chuck in the fact that we dropped 7 points when losing the lead away from home.

In respect of Stephens chance, it was a little more than just passing it into the net! Not sure how you can compare our game at Leicester when we went behind in the first minute and were chasing the game. The subs were like for like with Hemed playing up top and Knockhaert replacing Gross.

The other downside of having such a rigid approach is that the home team know exactly how we are going to play!

You say set piece conceding will happen whatever the formation and I agree to a certain extent but we were particularly bad at for quite a period last year.

I agree about the rigid formation in front of the back four. Swapping wings and interchange of positions is almost unheard of. Hyypia tried to play wing-backs and the results didn't come and we lost games we should have won. 3/5 at the back is automatic relegation. I hope other teams go down that route.

​

Also, running around and passing to players on the same side.

 

[Kneon Light]

Can’t read whole thread but the problem isn’t the system it’s the personnel.

Starting with basically the same XI as last season and expecting a different result was shear folly from CH.

With our new recruits up to tactical and fitness speed I strongly expect our 4-5-1/4-3-3 when attacking away formation to be the following:

Ryan
Bernardo (FB/WB)
Dunk
Balogun
Montoya (FB/WB)

Izqueirdo/March
Pröpper
Stephens
Bissouma/Groß
Ali J/Knockaert

Andone/Locadia

Take out or alternate use of Groß/Stephens with Bissouma/Pröpper the CM mainstays and switch Murray for pacier options, with our quickest wingers constantly on the pitch - whether that’s Izqueirdo/Ali J from the start and AK for either of them on tiredness and it’s a totally different proposition than Saturday which was slow, ponderous and without an outlet ball...

FWIW and I know it’s on the wrong thread the problems Saturday were:

1. Using March as the outlet ball because Murray/Groß aren’t quick enough - he didn’t take his man on, create space for others or link up play.
2. I saw Stephens/Pröpper/AK all at various times in the first half with hands raised asking others to move/create options for them. We got snuffed our in midfield. Introduction of Bissouma earlier would have solved this.


The solutions should have been:

1. Withdraw March for Bissouma earlier - probably at half time and do the following-

3 man midfield with Groß replacing March out wide until we wanted to introduce AJ (or not at all). Groß has the technique to receive the ball outwide, hold it up and bring other players in, which with Bissouma Driving forward would have still left adequate protection on the break.

2. Switch Murray for Locadia - controversial perhaps as the early loss of Bruno meant not being able to bring on Ali J BUT Locadia def has more pace than Murray, would have stretched their defence more.

I’ve calmed down a bit and understand why we made the different subs but it’s still so frustrating.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Why is everyone so quick to drop Duffy? He was outstanding last year and although not fantastic on Saturday was far from our weakest player.

 

[sussex_guy2k2]

Why is everyone so quick to drop Duffy? He was outstanding last year and although not fantastic on Saturday was far from our weakest player.

I didn't see the game on Saturday, but I would definitely not say he was outstanding last year. He's a statistics defender and, whilst that has its place, he relies very heavily on those around him to function effectively, particularly at this level where good movement and pace can quickly see him dragged out of position and where his biggest weaknesses i.e. his ability on the ball, are exploited more ruthlessly.

I like the guy, but I would argue he was incredibly lucky to keep his place at times last year and more ruthless managers than Hughton would've had him out of the side.

 

[Barham's tash]

Why is everyone so quick to drop Duffy? He was outstanding last year and although not fantastic on Saturday was far from our weakest player.

But would you agree he’s in the bottom one for our centre backs?

My main reason for wanting him dropped is because I’ve watched Balogun in the flesh against England in the pre World Cup friendly where he was massively assured without needing to do everything last ditch.

He marshalled Kane/Sterling that day without breaking a sweat but tellingly also managed to do the dirty work as well.

In summary I think I just want a change to see if it might be of benefit to the team. He can play with the ball at his feet better than Duffy can for starters.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[GT49er]

Can’t read whole thread but the problem isn’t the system it’s the personnel.

Starting with basically the same XI as last season and expecting a different result was shear folly from CH.

With our new recruits up to tactical and fitness speed I strongly expect our 4-5-1/4-3-3 when attacking away formation to be the following:

Ryan
Bernardo (FB/WB)
Dunk
Balogun
Montoya (FB/WB)

Izqueirdo/March
Pröpper
Stephens
Bissouma/Groß
Ali J/Knockaert

Andone/Locadia

Take out or alternate use of Groß/Stephens with Bissouma/Pröpper the CM mainstays .....................

.................I’ve calmed down a bit and understand why we made the different subs but it’s still so frustrating.

Agree with most of what you were saying there - so long as no-one actually wants to set up the team as you have listed on your team sheet, with Bernardo at RB and Montoya on the left!

(Traditionally - and quite often still the case - the RB is no.2, and thus the second name on the team sheet, after the GK, who is no.1)).

 

[Barham's tash]

Agree with most of what you were saying there - so long as no-one actually wants to set up the team as you have listed on your team sheet, with Bernardo at RB and Montoya on the left!

(Traditionally - and quite often still the case - the RB is no.2, and thus the second name on the team sheet, after the GK, who is no.1)).

It was the format in my brain that was the issue as I was thinking of it as if I was stood on the half way line looking back through the team and then tappatalk lack of formatting to my post did the rest.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Kneon Light]

But would you agree he’s in the bottom one for our centre backs?

My main reason for wanting him dropped is because I’ve watched Balogun in the flesh against England in the pre World Cup friendly where he was massively assured without needing to do everything last ditch.

He marshalled Kane/Sterling that day without breaking a sweat but tellingly also managed to do the dirty work as well.

In summary I think I just want a change to see if it might be of benefit to the team. He can play with the ball at his feet better than Duffy can for starters.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Bottom one? Absolutely not (but to be fair not really seen enough of Balogun to comment).
If Balogun is genuinely better I am sure he'll get in the team eventually but to me Duffy has been brilliant since we've signed him and on Saturday was certainly not the weak link.

 

[Kneon Light]

I didn't see the game on Saturday, but I would definitely not say he was outstanding last year. He's a statistics defender and, whilst that has its place, he relies very heavily on those around him to function effectively, particularly at this level where good movement and pace can quickly see him dragged out of position and where his biggest weaknesses i.e. his ability on the ball, are exploited more ruthlessly.

I like the guy, but I would argue he was incredibly lucky to keep his place at times last year and more ruthless managers than Hughton would've had him out of the side.

Have to agree to disagree then because for the majority of last season I thought he was outstanding. His partnership with Dunk was immense and one of the main reasons we stayed up imho

 

[Barham's tash]

Bottom one? Absolutely not (but to be fair not really seen enough of Balogun to comment).
If Balogun is genuinely better I am sure he'll get in the team eventually but to me Duffy has been brilliant since we've signed him and on Saturday was certainly not the weak link.

I just think that a team looking to progress needs to do more than just block at the back. Dunk has the ability to be a Lawrenson/Hansen type of diving centre back. Duffy does not. So let’s give Balogun a go no?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Kneon Light]

I just think that a team looking to progress needs to do more than just block at the back. Dunk has the ability to be a Lawrenson/Hansen type of diving centre back. Duffy does not. So let’s give Balogun a go no?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I'm sure if Balogun will get a go if he's good enough and Hughton thinks he is a better than Duffy.
I also think there is something to be said for defenders like Duffy who can defend - Lots of defenders in the Prem who are good on the ball but cannot do the basics.