[Albion] Changing The System

[Giraffe]

The central midfielders need help for sure. Not sure whether the answer is to put someone extra behind them or in front of them though. We miss a Sidwell type player.

 

[GT49er]

4-5-1, served us very well last year and it was our favoured formation without fail. Can't complain about that, we played some fantastic football.

However, this isn't a moan or anything like that, just would like to see what others think, is it now time we occasionally change it? Away from home it evidently doesn't work in the way we hope it would. Surely we need a system that will make us more threatening? Especially when behind, surely then a formation change could help?

Would like to see what others think.

Yes, I'm sure there are changes that some of us armchair football managers would like to make, but what it really boils down to is this: Do we want TB to sack CH and get in somebody else? Answer: A resounding no we bloody well don't.

So, 4-4-2 (or 4-4-1-1) it is (with every player pulled back for corners and free kicks and no-one left upfield to take the pressure off). Live with it, learn to love it - it worked for the last two seasons, and we've now got better players (we hope) available to come on and implement Plan A better.

 

[bWize]

TBF 4-5-1 was probably the right call for Watford away.The team line up was definitely questionable though, given our recent signings. It's ultimately the players who didn't make it work. Today was not the day for CH to experiment and test out last seasons team. Especially with an aging Bruno and Murray.

 

[portlock seagull]

Precisely. This famous quote was amongst several others we mentioned post match.

 

[RexCathedra]

Do we want TB to sack CH and get in somebody else? Answer: A resounding no we bloody well don't..

Wait six weeks -- the call for CH's head will be deafening.

 

[perseus]

I love CH but one of his biggest faults is his one dimensional approach to tactics and systems. What have we seen in four years? 4-4-2, a season of 4-4-1-1 and the odd bit of 4-5-1. All negative systems, all old school. Yes we did play three centre halves ONCE last season.

Some managers will change it several times in a game. Not Chris.

I think the problem was we did change to a more pressing system (like Man City) and it worked for 25 minutes until Bruno went off injured. Watford then competed at the same game and were better at it than our midfield. An unsuccessful attempt to improve our away record. Over the whole game, the only result was that we gave the ball away twice as often as normal.

I would go back to

1) deep defence
2) selective pressing (saves energy)
3) passing game (as a defensive tactic) when leading

Four at the back is the only system. Mathematicians like Tony Bloom would know better with how to arrange the formation at the back to cover the most ground expending the optimum amount of energy. It seems to me that four players strewn across the pitch can cover the ground the best.

Any combination in front of the back four depending on players and the opposition.

The advancing wing-back system of 3-5-2 has an inherent weakness that the long pass can be made into the gap left by the advancing full back. In that way lesser teams can get a shock win or wins like Leicester with a very quick striker.

The way to beat a pressing team (apart from trying to beat them like for like) is to pass your way out of the press, which requires technique and movement.

My other maxim is that we can only play on one wing at a time.

With a quickie like Izzy we might be able to play deep defence with counter attacking. Without pace up front (v Watford) it would have been deep defence without a threat (away last season).

My favourite tactical system is the lop-sided 4-3-3 with one winger (Izzy) a mobile front man (Andone/Locadia) and a tricky goal scoring inverted winger (Ali), a creative midfielder/key passes (Gros or Dale), Box to Box midfielder (Bissouma), a defensive midfielder (Dale or Propper; Delaney would have fitted). This system would not work against the top 6 though and like any formation it has weaknesses (a long ball can easily bypass a single defensive midfielder and the six in defence is not there).

At home against a deep defence is where Knocky would be still useful. And plan B could still use a big slow striker like Murray.

And playing against the top sides, two banks of four could still work.

None of these involve gegenpressing which is a different kettle. With lesser sides against the better teams it is just chasing shadows. Selective pressing is sometimes useful when chasing a game, and the passing game is good when the opposition is getting too much of the ball. And when defending a lead.

When needing a goal, we can go three at the back and risk what happened at home against Chelsea and Liverpool.

 

[sydney]

4-5-1, served us very well last year and it was our favoured formation without fail. Can't complain about that, we played some fantastic football.

However, this isn't a moan or anything like that, just would like to see what others think, is it now time we occasionally change it? Away from home it evidently doesn't work in the way we hope it would. Surely we need a system that will make us more threatening? Especially when behind, surely then a formation change could help?

Would like to see what others think.

yesterdays game was a mixture of some sort of curious lack of any idea of how to deal with watford's high tempo approach , having a very slow muzza , up front on his own , against what turned out to be a reasonably sound and mobile defence (he never had a chance) and having half the team or more who turned in a blimming shocker , they looked a yard short all over the pitch ..........as said elsewhere , hopefully the kick up the arse we needed , our next 2 games though.....

 

[perseus]

Everton didn't seem to suffer with their massive money signing today by the sound of it

Jagielka and Keane as normal let them down.

 

[kevtherev]

You cannot play Murray away from home. He has no pace and if you relying on counter attacks and pace to hurt the opposition, then what the point. I would have thought this was obvious...But then, that said. We haven't got any strikers. Plenty of defenders and midfielders and keepers. Just no strikers, who happen to do the most important job in football.

 

[Icy Gull]

Why did they only score two then !!!!!

Ryan’s saves and some wasteful use of chances by Watford. They ran us ragged all over the pitch and our passing, spirit and apparent unwillingness to commit to winning 50/50 balls was embarrassing to watch. We looked like a poor out of form Championship team playing in the Premier League.

 

[West Upper Seagull]

4-5-1, served us very well last year and it was our favoured formation without fail. Can't complain about that, we played some fantastic football.

However, this isn't a moan or anything like that, just would like to see what others think, is it now time we occasionally change it? Away from home it evidently doesn't work in the way we hope it would. Surely we need a system that will make us more threatening? Especially when behind, surely then a formation change could help?

Would like to see what others think.

I am genuinely of the opinion that our formation away from home needs to be 5-3-2 / 3-5-2.
Firstly this gives us greater numbers and solidity down the centre of the pitch and should make us harder to break down.
Secondly, our wingers rarely seem to be in the game away from home, and like yesterday can be passengers a lot of the time. Use wing backs to give us our width instead.
Stick Bissouma or Gross in the midfield 3 with Stephens & Propper.
Play with 2 genuine attackers up top to actually give us more of an attacking threat. Either Murray as a target man with one of our pacier attackers to feed off him and run in behind him, or simply 2 pacey attackers - Andone & Locadia or Andone / Locadia with Ali J playing off either of these 2.

Based on the theory of, if you keep doing the same thing then you’ll get the same results - something has to change with our set up away from home.

 

[perseus]

I am genuinely of the opinion that our formation away from home needs to be 5-3-2 / 3-5-2.
Firstly this gives us greater numbers and solidity down the centre of the pitch and should make us harder to break down.
Secondly, our wingers rarely seem to be in the game away from home, and like yesterday can be passengers a lot of the time. Use wing backs to give us our width instead.
Stick Bissouma or Gross in the midfield 3 with Stephens & Propper.
Play with 2 genuine attackers up top to actually give us more of an attacking threat. Either Murray as a target man with one of our pacier attackers to feed off him and run in behind him, or simply 2 pacey attackers - Andone & Locadia or Andone / Locadia with Ali J playing off either of these 2.

Based on the theory of, if you keep doing the same thing then you’ll get the same results - something has to change with our set up away from home.

It was not our six man defence that let us down away from home in open play last season (with two games to go we had the best defence from open play bar none) ,

Deep defence runs the risk of own goals, more set pieces conceded, more own goals and more bad luck under pressure.

I like the Liverpool formation at home to the likes of West Ham and the other dozen clubs

Who scored our ten away goals last season? From memory a March header and Murray and Izzy mostly.

 

[Stumpy Tim]

If we are going to play that way away from home we have to have a lot of pace across the front line. Yesterday we had zero pace... we need some of Jose, Ali, Andone, Locadia and Bissouma playing.

 

[the right footed denilson]

I am genuinely of the opinion that our formation away from home needs to be 5-3-2 / 3-5-2.
Firstly this gives us greater numbers and solidity down the centre of the pitch and should make us harder to break down.
Secondly, our wingers rarely seem to be in the game away from home, and like yesterday can be passengers a lot of the time. Use wing backs to give us our width instead.
Stick Bissouma or Gross in the midfield 3 with Stephens & Propper.
Play with 2 genuine attackers up top to actually give us more of an attacking threat. Either Murray as a target man with one of our pacier attackers to feed off him and run in behind him, or simply 2 pacey attackers - Andone & Locadia or Andone / Locadia with Ali J playing off either of these 2.

Based on the theory of, if you keep doing the same thing then you’ll get the same results - something has to change with our set up away from home.

Yeah, like it. Don't think Bernardo looks like his has the attributes for WB.
I've often though Gross might do well as a right wing back, though lacks a little pace certainly makes up with it in workrate and crossing.

Ryan
Balogun Duffy Dunk
Montoya Bernardo (?)
Gross Stephens Bissouma
Andone Locadia

Looks like a team that is a) solid and b) likely to create a little more away from home.

EDIT: Might March be better as a wing back?

 

[Arkwright]

Something has to change away from home, we can't keep on knocking it long to Murray with no one getting close to him.

Our ball retention was poor, don't know if we need to change the system or the personnel within it. It's going to be a long season on the road if we keep on giving the ball away so cheaply.

 

[Bakero]

 

[Bwian]

Having just seen the way Liverpool coasted past West Ham the system change needs implementing pretty damn quick.

 

[perseus]

Having just seen the way Liverpool coasted past West Ham the system change needs implementing pretty damn quick.

Liverpool played four at the back and West Ham have changed to four (notionally). Three or five at the back (wing-back system) is both suicidal (Hyypia) and makes all our wingers redundant.

We just need to play technical and energetic players to beat the press.

Unfortunately, we have Knockaert, Solly March, that are so one footed that they get caught out in possession of the ball. And Dale Stephens and Davy Pröpper as well. That's our complete midfield at Watford. This is both theoretical and in practice. I think they should learn to use their weaker foot as teenagers (I think it is partly hard-wired into the brain though). Quickness of thought can make-up for being one-footedness as it is possible to know what the opponent is going to do but still unable to anything about it.

 

[Icy Gull]

Having just seen the way Liverpool coasted past West Ham the system change needs implementing pretty damn quick.

We know what will happen if we adopt the usual away tactics at Liverpool and they know exactly how we set up to play. Perfect game to try something different imo. We are likely to get hammered whatever set up we go with so it’s very definitely worth trying something different, assuming that the players and manager can actually change their mindsets and adapt during the game if necessary and not just fold if we go a couple of goals down. Basically how intelligent and adaptable are our players and can CH change tactics during a game, not something we have seen from him so far.

 

[Cozzy]

I would like to see a 4 - 1 - 4 - 1 setup ... Stephens as a holding mid to protect the CB's with two of the other mid-fielders in front of him with freedom to join the attacks with the wingers & FB's playing similar to the 4 4 1 1 system ... may sound even more defensive but IMHO frees up the central midfield to push forward more often in support
could also back fire of course but in seems in the past we have been out numbered in the centre areas