GingerBeerMan
3-0
- Dec 29, 2011
- 8,205
He's a classic deep lying playmaker. I actually think there isn't much to choose between him and MacAllister,
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[Albion] Carlos Baleba SINGS a 5-year deal
- Thread starter Stumpy Tim
- Start date
um bongo molongo
Well-known member
Whilst I agree it’s too harsh, Gilmour is 22, not 19, I don’t think he’s going to bulk out much.
(Many of us bulk out in our 30s and 40s but that isn’t the type of bulk you’re hoping for I suspect…)
Yes but very rarely do we turn around on the half way line and play it back, that was my point. Of course we use the keeper in the build up from goal kicks or in deep possession etc
- Oct 20, 2022
- 6,941
Again, why too harsh to say Gilmour doesn’t have the attributes to carry the key DMF pivot position that RDZ’s system requires? Gilmour doesn’t intercept the ball enough either imo, lets the oppo dictate the timing of his passes too often and doesn’t have that tackling killer instinct either that Bissouma or Caicedo had (nor an ability to win lots of duels in the air or on the ground). That’s not being ‘harsh’ but recognising what we need in a pivot under RDZs system and what we lost when we sold Caceido (and Bissouma under Potter’s possession football). Perhaps look at some old videos of Cruyff, Guardiola or Busquets for example to see what I mean? It is too early to tell if 19 yr old Baleba has the mental capacity for the role, he’s still raw like Caceido was when we signed him but the way he handled the untraditional positioning RDZ used him for against Brentford suggests at least, the signs are there.
I didn’t see Baleba do that as you are claiming - in fact he was playing in a CB position behind the FBs much of the time as I said above. When he did make forays into the a traditional MF position, he was moving forward in possession, not passing back to Steele from the half way line. Also, using the keeper for ‘goal kicks’, is not what I meant above by ‘extra player’ - the keeper is often the third man in the triangle in playing out from the back - not a fall back option or just used to take traditional goal kicks (although both Steele and Verbruggen have used long goal kicks to play over the top of a high press too with great success at times.)
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Weststander
Well-known member
Only a world cup win with Scotland to go.
um bongo molongo
Well-known member
Gilmour was never the Caicedo replacement, he was the Mac Allister replacement. Comparing him to Caicedo is to completely misunderstand RDZ’s system. As a Mac Allister replacement I think he’s doing OK. Not as good as the Ali Mac we had when he left, but at least as good as the Ali Mac we had when he arrived. I would like to see us have another physical, dynamic midfielder in the Biss/Caicedo mould for the other pivot, as even once Baleba develops, he can’t play every week. But that’s a different discussion.
- Oct 20, 2022
- 6,941
Well he certainly isn’t a replacement for Caceido, that we agree on. But to say I ‘completely misunderstand RDZs system’ is just laughable - I’ve literally explained what RDZs DNA is in my previous few posts. You have misunderstood what MacAllister’s role was too under RDZ - we stopped playing MacAllister as a DMF pivot shortly after Potter left. Last season, when RDZ came on board, he tweaked Mackie’s role and used him as 10/CAM because RDZ saw in him goal scoring possibilities and his usefulness in high counter-pressing. I would suggest that Facu was signed as a long term potential replacement for MaCallister in our current set up and Baleba signed as the long term replacement for Caceido but it is Gilmour playing that role at the moment and until he is replaced, he will be compared with the previous occupants.
um bongo molongo
Well-known member
If you think Mac was playing consistently as a CAM then you were watching different games to me. I saw a double pivot, one an athletic, strong player who gets around the pitch, disrupts, keeps the ball in tight spaces and recycles it (Caicedo) and the second a more ‘knitter together’, strong in passing and link up play (Mac). I do agree we haven’t really replaced Caicedo (at least not with someone ready) and so RDZ has had to adjust this season by playing Gilmour deeper - as he had to do with Mac at times when Caicedo was out last year. I don’t think either Mac or Gilmour is suited to that deeper role, so we’re violently agreeing on that. But I don’t think it’s Billy’s fault any more than it was Mac’s fault, that he isn’t a Caicedo type. I also think this is the main reason we look so much more open and likely to concede this year (as we did when Moises was missing last year).
aolstudios
Well-known member
Good call. I'd say Billy is more skillful, while Mac is stronger
No offence intended to either of you, but this is a REALLY stupid argument, given that Alexis MacAllister very obviously played BOTH of the different roles you are describing, in various games.
Not as daft as this though. I like little Billy, but f***ing hell!
- Oct 20, 2022
- 6,941
I agree with this. Sorry but Mackie isn’t the issue though - RDZ is using Gilmour as a replacement for Caceido until Baleba (hopefully) can grow into the role- that is the position we are discussing vis a vis Gilmour so it is perfectly reasonable to discuss how Gilmour is handling that role compared to Caceido (and it went off track) - he intended to bring in Facu as a replacement for Mackie (in the forward position that Mackie often played after the W/C) but I could see both Fac and Gilmour having overlapping roles possibly . And sorry but Gilmour is not at MaCallister’s level (IMHO of course) but I do think he is doing a good job (and have said so frequently) , it’s just that he’s also just waaay off the level of Caceido (IMHO of course) and it is a weakness in our game compared to last season - it’s not Gilmour’s fault at all, it is very unfortunate we were unable to persuade Caceido to stay at least another 6 months.
A very positive view of Gilmour here
The irony of Gilmour replacing Caicedo in the Brighton midfield
Brighton sold Moises Caicedo to Chelsea for £115m and seamlessly replaced him with Billy Gilmour, signed for £9m from... Chelsea
www.wearebrighton.com
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Just to weigh in here, Gilmour isn't and hasn't been playing the "Caicedo role", he'd been playing the "Gilmour role". Mac Allister and Caicedo played well together because their skillsets were complimentary in as much as Caicedo could be the deeper of the two allowing Mac Allister to either drop in as a double pivot of push on as a 10 as needed with Caicedo rarely pushing forward as much. De Zerbi has changed the way our midfield plays this season whererin Gilmour is much more of a hybrid 10/pivot and his partner is more of a 10/pivot too to compensate for a slight lack of DM-specialism.I agree with this. Sorry but Mackie isn’t the issue though - RDZ is using Gilmour as a replacement for Caceido until Baleba (hopefully) can grow into the role- that is the position we are discussing vis a vis Gilmour so it is perfectly reasonable to discuss how Gilmour is handling that role compared to Caceido (and it went off track) - he intended to bring in Facu as a replacement for Mackie (in the forward position that Mackie often played after the W/C) but I could see both Fac and Gilmour having overlapping roles possibly . And sorry but Gilmour is not at MaCallister’s level (IMHO of course) but I do think he is doing a good job (and have said so frequently) , it’s just that he’s also just waaay off the level of Caceido (IMHO of course) and it is a weakness in our game compared to last season - it’s not Gilmour’s fault at all, it is very unfortunate we were unable to persuade Caceido to stay at least another 6 months.
A very positive view of Gilmour here
The irony of Gilmour replacing Caicedo in the Brighton midfield
Brighton sold Moises Caicedo to Chelsea for £115m and seamlessly replaced him with Billy Gilmour, signed for £9m from... Chelsea
To your other point, I agree, none of our midfielders are at the Mac Allister/Caicedo partnership level yet, De Zerbi more or less said so himself. As it stands, we are ceding too much possession in midfield and protecting the defence less effectively. A midfield with Mac Allister and Caicedo in it doesn't get 15 league games in without a clean sheet, in my opinion.
Gilmour, Gross, Dahoud, Baleba, Moder are creating something very different in midfield and it remains to be seen how they evolve but the early signs are that it will be an evolution, not a like-for-like copy.
Really?! I think there's a chasm between them.
scooter1
How soon is now?
It'd be great if BG could start to add goals to his game...
I am shocked by the insight that neither Gilmore or Baleba are at the level of a generational talent like Caicedo or world cup winner MacAllister.
The source of the problem is that Caicedo developed so quickly and so the big money for him came in early. That and the Mwepu's retirement has just left the production line lagging a bit in CM.
The source of the problem is that Caicedo developed so quickly and so the big money for him came in early. That and the Mwepu's retirement has just left the production line lagging a bit in CM.
Machiavelli
Well-known member
Can I just chip in that both last season and this season, Pascal has played a large number of minutes in the CM position (or 'double-pivot' if you must), but hasn't featured in any of these discussions. RDZ has clearly stated that he only has three automatic picks -- Dunk, Gross and Mitoma -- so Gross needs to be included in the conversation (perhaps it's his versatility that's precluding it, but he still plays the majority of his minutes in the CM position).
My first thought was that sounds horribly WRONG or CREEPY. Then I remembered that the boy is only 19 himself, to be fair!
