[Politics] Capital Punishment

[clapham_gull]

If life actually meant life in prison, the chances of reoffending would be quite small.

It does except it isn't called a life sentence, it's called a whole life term and there a number of prisoners who will never leave prison. There are currently approximately 60 prisoners in UK jails and institutions who will never be released.

It was actually "legally surprising" that Sarah Everards murderer was given a whole life tariff. It's quite rare for someone who has committed a single murder to get one, but they applied it to murderer of MP Jo Cox. Fortunately the judge interpreted the rules in way that means he will never walk the streets again, particularly by using his status as policeman in the middle of a national crises.

The term "life sentence" is widely misunderstood and badly named. My understanding is although you can be released after a minimum period the actual sentence itself hangs over for life and you can re-imprisoned for a relatively "minor" offences.

I was told a story from a solicitor friend about a man who had been released locally after many years after committing a murder. He got local work and was having a drink in a local pub with his toolbox by his side.

He had a few too many and the police were called. On the basis they found a knife in his toolbox he was sent back to prison.

 

[BadFish]

I suppose you're choosing to ignore the evidence on re-offending? Well, not a question really - you obviously will cotinue to do so.

This is the first time that I have seen any mention of re-offending on this thread. Do you have a link to it or would you care to elaborate?

Edit: I found these stats about re offending https://criminology.research.southw...g these 177 men, 13,theft or illicit drug use).

My question though is that is this issue best dealt with capital punishment or another way. As others have said surely if prison sentences were longer and life meant life then this reoffending would be reduced. I would also suggest that the testing for successful rehabilitation may also need to be looked at.

Do you have any evidence that Capital Punishment is the best way to address re-offending?

GT - I note that you accused me of choosing to ignore the evidence on re-offending (not sure any was actually posted?) and that I would continue to do so.

I just wanted to draw attention to my request for more information (the evidence you were referring to) and my response to the evidence I found (your post was a bit vague so I am not sure this is what meant.

I assume that you missed it as you clearly wouldn't just be ignoring it . . . or will you continue to do so

 

[Robinjakarta]

I have voted for the first option and agree with the reasons already stated on this thread.

I have never seen any worthwhile evidence that Capital Punishment acts as a deterrent?

I voted for the first option for the same reasons.

Deterrence is commonly used as an argument for the death penalty despite lack of evidence (I've never seen any at all).

 

[Chicken Run]

Very good.

I'm very pleased that more than 80% of those voting have voted correctly. I'm aware that many in favour of the rope won't have voted. Because they can't be bothered to vote. Fancy that

The 20% need to take a good look at themselves. Unless you are prepared to shoot or stab someone to death yourself (and not someone who has done anything to you or yours) then shut the **** up.

It’s interesting that I voted with the 80% yet don’t feel the anger you are clearly showing towards people that didn’t, it’s their choice, their opinion for goodness sake, why do you need to be so angry at others that have a different opinion to you?


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[Bakero]

Rather than having 1 guest for the death penalty and 2 against, it looks like you need 1 for, 4 against, Lenny.

 

[Hamilton]

Yes, sadly the world has changed - not entirely for the better - since we abolished the death penalty in 1964 (or whenever it actually was - 1964 was the last execution). Unthinkable thiufh it might have been back in the hopeful days of the 1960s - and many decades since - 9/11, 7/7 and DNA have shifted the landscape.
Human rights for Ian Huntley and Roy Whiting anyone? (Yes, I know people will be queueing up to protect their rights on NSC, so as a minority opinion I'll leave this thread before the inevitable outrage).

Can you share data that shows how the world has shifted for the worse since 1964, when it comes to crime?


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[The Clamp]

Nope I just cannot get my head around why you’d be foolish enough to vote not guilty when the facts prove guilty. It’s a complete cop out, personally I couldn’t live with myself having your attitude

Your principles might be different if the soldier had been your son….

WTF has Johnson got to do with this?

He didn’t say he’d “vote” not guilty. He said he wouldn’t vote to kill him. Interesting that you give that example though.

I haven’t much more to add other than I’d rather see 100 murderers live than kill 1 wrong man.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

I’d certainly reintroduce the death penalty for local tv

 

[DavidinSouthampton]

Absolutely not.

Just look at Texas where they still kill people even though they know they are innocent. Horrific.

 

[DavidinSouthampton]

I suppose you're choosing to ignore the evidence on re-offending? Well, not a question really - you obviously will cotinue to do so.

For me, even if the death penalty was proved to be a major deterrent, I still wouldn’t vote for it.

I wouldn’t be prepared to pull the lever, flick the switch, administer the injection or whatever, and wouldn’t expect anybody else to do it on my behalf.

 

[Lenny Rider]

You seem to have set up a poll where everyone can see what everyone else voted for Lenny, but don't seem to have voted yourself. Any reason ?

I'd find it hard to believe that you don't have a view on it

Fair point Watford Old Mate .

I’m actually torn on this one, don’t want to give too much away for the show recording but I’m old enough to remember the;
Guildford 4
Birmingham 6
Bridgewater 3
Stefan Kidsko

Just off the top of my head, 14 people we would have hung with capital punishment but all innocent, fitted up by corrupt Police forces.

On the flip side, I recall the cases of Ian Huntley, Russell Bishop, Pete Suttcliffe, Ian Brady, Myra Hindley, Levi Bellfield.

6 murderers, clearly guilty who I would have had no qualms about seeing the state execute them.

It’s a tough one.

Hence one of the reasons why I want to make this programme, to get both sides of the argument.

Thank you all for voting though

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

I personally think it’s a very simple debate. Does it work i.e. act as a deterrent? Clearly not. Once the fact it doesn’t work is removed from the discussion why would you then want to kill someone? You’re then left with some pretty unpalatable and grim justifications which relate more to the unpleasant side of human nature than any form of Justice.

 

[Perfidious Albion]

I don’t think it is wrong for a properly administered state to make an execution of a serial killer or the worst of our society. That is totally different to a revenge killing by an individual. The burden of proof would have to be greater than normal but it sees only right to me.

 

[WATFORD zero]

There's a few who have posted on here saying that you would have a different view if it was a member of your family.

So for them, if a member of your family is wrongfully convicted and hanged, who do you believe should be justifiably killed (obviously not for revenge, but in terms of justice), The Judge, Prosecution, Jury, Police who built the case, witnesses

And this

I personally think it’s a very simple debate. Does it work i.e. act as a deterrent? Clearly not. Once the fact it doesn’t work is removed from the discussion why would you then want to kill someone? You’re then left with some pretty unpalatable and grim justifications which relate more to the unpleasant side of human nature than any form of Justice.

 

[dazzer6666]

It does except it isn't called a life sentence, it's called a whole life term and there a number of prisoners who will never leave prison. There are currently approximately 60 prisoners in UK jails and institutions who will never be released.

It was actually "legally surprising" that Sarah Everards murderer was given a whole life tariff. It's quite rare for someone who has committed a single murder to get one, but they applied it to murderer of MP Jo Cox. Fortunately the judge interpreted the rules in way that means he will never walk the streets again, particularly by using his status as policeman in the middle of a national crises.

The term "life sentence" is widely misunderstood and badly named. My understanding is although you can be released after a minimum period the actual sentence itself hangs over for life and you can re-imprisoned for a relatively "minor" offences.

I was told a story from a solicitor friend about a man who had been released locally after many years after committing a murder. He got local work and was having a drink in a local pub with his toolbox by his side.

He had a few too many and the police were called. On the basis they found a knife in his toolbox he was sent back to prison.

I know all that, that’s exactly my point. Serious offenders are being let out when they shouldn’t be. That’s what should be adjusted before capital punishment is considered.

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

Yep. Because I have a strong set of principles that I believe in and try to live by. One of those principles is that taking human life is wrong and I want no part of it.

It's sad that you feel that living by set of moral principles is somehow wrong. Too many people feel that way - that's how we've ended up with a mendacious, venal, lecherous narcissist as prime minister.

Your morals and principles care more about the perpetrator than the victims though.

The mental state of a great many victims is a hell of a lot different when their attacker is dead v when they are still out there somewhere alive even if they are locked up.


My cousins youngest son who had to go through his brother being stabbed to death by a ****ing piece of shit won't even leave the house anymore because he fears he'll also get stabbed by these ***** who the courts care more about than the victims.

If the little **** that stabbed him to death got hung from a tree maybe then my cousin could feel safer about entering life again rather than feeling like a mentally wrecked prisoner in his own home.

But yeah keep him alive so him and his family can keep taunting our family knowing even if he goes to jail he'll be able to hang around with all the other scum ****s in his family already in there and wear it like a badge of honour.

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

I personally think it’s a very simple debate. Does it work i.e. act as a deterrent? Clearly not. Once the fact it doesn’t work is removed from the discussion why would you then want to kill someone? You’re then left with some pretty unpalatable and grim justifications which relate more to the unpleasant side of human nature than any form of Justice.

Maybe because if a guy raped 20 different women those women would feel much safer in life knowing the prick was dead and could never harm them again?

It's not about a deterrent, it's about removing threats to society that have caused horrific trauma to not only their victims but their families.

 

[A1X]

The best idea I ever heard on this came from a Radio 4 show called "Genius" several years ago.

If there is a referendum, it's not a secret ballot. Then the names of anyone who votes in favour of capital punishment (assuming it passes) are collected. In the event that someone is later killed who was found to be innocent in a miscarriage of justice, a lottery is held with the names of all those who voted in favour of capital punishment and one chosen at random is also killed. It seems perfectly fair to me, if you're prepared to risk the deaths of others then be prepared to put your money where your mouth is.

 

[Blue Valkyrie]

This has obviously been discussed on many threads on NSC over the years.

I tried without success to trawl for the post by the NSC user whose daughter had been killed in an incident that was reported in the papers.

I think they were against capital punishment from memory and my thoughts are still with them although I don't remember their username.

 

[Withdean11]

On a case by case basis, reserved for the very worst, then yes.