Campaign to get Ding Dong the Witch is Dead to Number One

[Dick Knights Mumm]

See cnn coverage http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2306481/Margaret-Thatcher-dead-CNN-tribute-blunder-running-picture-PM-JIMMY-SAVILE.html

ELEVEN New Year Eves ? Good judgement.

 

[Butch Willykins]

Wow, how utterly pathetic and distasteful.

 

[ATFC Seagull]

Why? It's true. And there wouldn't be a property ladder, because mortgages were very difficult to get hold of, then. We bought our £11,000 house in 1978 and we needed a 10% deposit, but we didn't have it. So we had to borrow it from someone and spent years paying it back. Mrs Thatcher loosened up bank lending so more people were able to get mortgages much more easily, and that meant house prices shot up. For guidance, my wages trebled between 1970 and 1980, from £10 a week to £30 a week, because inflation had been so high in between. That will tell you just how long it would have taken to save the £1100 deposit, or how long it took us to pay it back.

I'm not disputing those facts - but as I've said that's how people you know personally benefited from her economic policies as opposed to a wider-ranging evaluation of her. My issue is with you saying that because you were there - and you've illustrated it beautifully with a very specific example.

On your actual argument though, before the Thatcher era you didn't NEED to get on the property ladder in this country to the extent that one does now, so by increasing the number of owners and thus driving prices up (and not replacing the council stock therefore leaving non-owners much more at the mercy of private landlords), it just became harder. I don't know how much knowledge you have on life for a first-time buyer now, but you need at LEAST 15-20k deposit to buy a very basic ex-council house on a very poor value mortgage. Given that you are probably paying £800 per month in rent (as a couple), I fail to see how that is much different from how you say it was in the 70's. But minus the much more accessible and affordable decent social housing for those unable to do so in the meantime.

 

[pork pie]

On a side note, is there any chance we can bring big industry and manufacturing back to the UK?

Sadly not, we don't have a workforce with the skills needed. Tony Blair sent the working class to university, now they all think they are too good to do such work with their degrees in politics, sports science and drama.

 

[rool]

Spread the word people. Give Thatcher a final kick she deserved by keeping this No 1

It's probably fair to say she couldn't give a toss right now about how either side of the divide are getting their knickers in a twist

I think it's easy to see who are making themselves look the bigger twats though with their futile demonstrations.

 

[GNF on Tour]

Sadly not, we don't have a workforce with the skills needed. Tony Blair sent the working class to university, now they all think they are too good to do such work with their degrees in politics, sports science and drama.

you sound jealous

 

[HovaGirl]

Out of interest what do you think needs to be done now? The UK economy is a basket case of dead end low paid crap service sector jobs; what are these Tories you love so much doing for the economy which pleases you?

Nothing has pleased me about any political party or Government action for decades. I have a quiet respect for John Major's contribution and always consider him to be an underestimated PM. I was Labour for years but my natural home was with the Social Democrats. It was disaster when they married the Liberals and I joined the party just so I could vote against it. I haven't agreed with anything Labour have said since then. Then when I began to study sociology, politics and a smattering of economics at degree level, I began to understand more of how Government and society worked. Tony Blair is a natural Tory, but he knew he would go further under Labour than he ever would with the Tories, so he joined Labour. In other words, no political party has all the answers. Labour and the Conservatives are so idealogically opposed to each other, that they spent the 20th century doing and undoing each others' work. Politics is not pragmatic enough. It is too short-term and full of power-hungry control freaks.

Input and output. Income and expenditure. Britain's expenditure is far greater than its income. Britain either has to increase its income (taxes) or reduce its expenditure (benefits, State jobs). Or else a bit of both. The only other option, is to sell things, but there is nothing left to sell. Gordon sold the gold. Maggie sold the houses, electricity, gas, railways, etc, etc. We could borrow money, but we already owe interest on the interest of the vast amounts we have already borrowed.

One way of reducing benefits, is to swap benefits for taxes. That is to say, those who are on benefits, are not curently paying taxes. If those on benefits had jobs, then they would pay taxes (increased income for the state) and would not receive benefits (reduced outgoings for the state). But where are the jobs going to come from, if the banks aren't lending to small business while large and small business of all shapes and sizes are going bankrupt every day?

If the State creates jobs, then it would gain the taxes the new workers would pay, but the State would be paying out much more for their wages, than they would in benefits, and that would have to be covered by a rise in taxes.

The State could borrow money to create jobs, but then the people would be paying twice as much in their taxes. Once to pay back the State loan, and again to pay the State wages. And even if the State did create these jobs, what are these new State workers actually going to do? What service or goods will their new State-funded jobs provide? Who has the money to pay for their services or goods? No one, at the moment. The country is in recession and people are tightening their belts, going cold and hungry and struggling to pay their own individual loans and debts.

It's a catch-22 situation with no real answer.

And here is the crux of the matter. Because this is exactly the situation Mrs Thatcher inherited when she came to power. And she got us out of it and turned the country around. But she had to be cruel to be kind to do so and her legacy is far-reaching. Unwittingly, her legacy ate into the fabric of society and changed the way Britons think, and much of that thinking is evident in this thread, on both sides of the political and social debate.

 

[HovaGirl]

Choice 1 - modernise that industry (notwithstanding the opposition to any change from the unions who absolutely DID need reining in) and attempt to move it forward. Cost; large amounts in grants and subsidy.

Choice 2 - close everything down. Put hundreds of thousands out of work, in the plants themselves, and in the supporting industries and the towns generally, then hand out all the subsidy anyway to Japanese car makers. Cost; unemployment benefits for decades to thousands and thousands of people, social deprivation, increased crime and associated policing costs.

Your memory is very selective.

Choice 1 was taken. Billions were invested to modernise the industry.

 

[HovaGirl]

Boom-boom.

Savile actually spent Christmas at Chequers with Thatcher. I am not sure what that says about her judgement, and the judgement of those around her.

Except no one knew what he was, at the time. He was "in" with everyone.

 

[GNF on Tour]

Except no one knew what he was, at the time. He was "in" with everyone.

Yes they did, they just turned a blind eye because of the charity dollars. Sickening. Same way they turned a blind eye to Dennis Thatcers dodgy business associations.

 

[The Large One]

Except no one knew what he was, at the time.

Even then, people were talking of 'stories' and 'rumours'; something her security network would have been onto in a flash. The Sunday Mirror pulled out of running an exposé in 1981 due to what he threatened them with. How did he manage that, one supposes?

If you really believe 'no-one knew' - even in the murky shadows, it would be an almighty failing by the security services.

He was "in" with everyone.

... which explains a lot.

 

[Monkey Man]

Here's an idea. Instead of wasting time and money on social media juvenilia, why don't those who are so concerned about Fatcher's Bwitain do something constructive to make the world a marginally better place?

Do some voluntary work. Donate a quid to charity. Call on an elderly neighbour. Pick up some litter that isn't yours. Join a campaigning group that will make a difference to your immediate locality, the UK, or somewhere overseas. Think about running for office in local government.

Or just spend hours Tweeting, posting snide comments on messageboards, and buying downloads that you think will "make a point".

 

[Dick Knights Mumm]

Except no one knew what he was, at the time. He was "in" with everyone.

I am afraid that is also not quite true. Many people steered clear of him as he was a wrong 'un. And certainly you would expect the offices that support the PM to know the rumours. Personally I had no idea (other than I never likes the look of the bloke) but then I did not have lots of people around me whose job it was to protect me from bad publicity.

I am not sure what it says about her, but it is of interest.

She was not alone - he was buddies with Charlie-boy.

 

[GNF on Tour]

Even then, people were talking of 'stories' and 'rumours'; something her security network would have been onto in a flash. The Sunday Mirror pulled out of running an exposé in 1981 due to what he threatened them with. How did he manage that, one supposes?

If you really believe 'no-one knew' - even in the murky shadows, it would be an almighty failing by the security services.



... which explains a lot.

but Hova girl is a massive security expert, so you must be wrong, she taught James Bond everything he knows!

 

[Dick Knights Mumm]

Here's an idea. Instead of wasting time and money on social media juvenilia, why don't those who are so concerned about Fatcher's Bwitain do something constructive to make the world a marginally better place?

Do some voluntary work. Donate a quid to charity. Call on an elderly neighbour. Pick up some litter that isn't yours. Join a campaigning group that will make a difference to your immediate locality, the UK, or somewhere overseas. Think about running for office in local government.

Or just spend hours Tweeting, posting snide comments on messageboards, and buying downloads that you think will "make a point".

What makes you think people are not already doing that ?

 

[Monkey Man]

What makes you think people are not already doing that ?

Maybe they are. I don't see much evidence of it from my vantage point ... but I'm prepared to be open minded and assume that all the chattering politicos who appear to spend so much time emiting their bile on social media are also getting stuck in, in the real world, where people actually live. Not just the Twitter/Facebook bubble.

 

[HovaGirl]

So she has ****ed the economy.....yes?

No, because subsequent Governments could have put more investment into small manufacturing businesses and less in to propping up banks and insurance, insurance being the biggest con ever invented. It even came to the point where you had to insure the insurance. Mrs Thatcher was not a clairvoyant. She couldn't know that the compounded actions of successive Governments, including her own, would contribute to such a lack of real industry in this country, leaving a dearth of jobs. But other Governments could have rectified this to any extent, but they didn't. Instead, Gordon filled up hospitals and other State institutions with layers of management, who manage nothing more than each other and don't actually contribute to the financial profitability of this country. Instead, they cost the country money. (Your taxes pay their wages.) But, in these days of necessary Government cuts, the last people these managers are going to cut, are themselves. They will bend over backwards to save their own, and each others' jobs. They're only human. So it's the front line which gets cut, instead.

 

[HovaGirl]

As opposed to an economic basket case...which you kind of admitted in your previous post?

Britain is an economic basket case now, but that is the fault of the Blair/Brown Governments. They inherited a State in tip-top financial nick from John Major.

 

[HovaGirl]

On a side note, is there any chance we can bring big industry and manufacturing back to the UK?

We did it once. We can do it again. But it will take the right kind of national and global economic conditions and the right political mindset to do it. And the people will have to be courageous while it is being done.

 

[HovaGirl]

I confess I really don’t understand the argument that one should “show respect” to someone that’s died etc.

It's nothing more than good manners, whoever has died. But good manners seem to be old-school, old-fashioned and uncool, these days!