[Politics] Cambridge Analytica were involved in a pro Brexit campaign

[Deleted member 22389]

Story will run for another 6 days or so, then the issue will move on to something else for Remainers to moan about. We had a referendum Leave won, we just need to get on with it now, get behind the country and stop the friggin moaning.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

With all due respect - bollocks.

I get that those of a Leave flavour don’t understand this, or want to acknowledge it, but if people genuinely feel we are making a mistake, they will continue to, and have every right to, fight against it. Pushing for a second vote, is neither undemocratic not unpatriotic. Quite the opposite, in fact.

And if that referendum swings slightly towards stay it will be OK for people like me to push for a third referendum and so on and so on ? How many are we making this the best of ?

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

More ill informed crap about Momentum. In our group there are two (2) who want out, all the rest are inners. In my CLP there was one outer.

You have taken a tiny bit of my reply out of context. I don't recall momentum leading the charge to Remain. And I certainly recall Corbyn's stance. Leading the charge? Pah!

 

[beorhthelm]

Not necessarily true. Both Trump and Brexit were underdog campaigns at the start and therefore were more likely to need underhand tactics (such as hiring CA) to win.

you think this is new? its really an refinement of the marketing methods used for decades. and it was Obama's teams use of deep data mining that showed the value of these techniques. the reason this particular firm is become so well known was due to its links to Bannon and the Trump campaign. they've effectively marketd themselfs off the back of that "look how great we are". there's an irony buying into their sales pitch when it may not have had quite as much influence as they and the loseing sides would like to think.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

I have a favour to ask. A small favour and I promise never to ask or cajole you again on this subject.

Could you help me by explaining clearly to me one thing.

If there is the cast iron guarantee of another referendum for the U.K. At the end of this negotiation, something which, I agree, sounds perfectly reasonable. Then exactly what do you think the 27 EU states who we are leaving will do? Do you think that they will:

A) negotiate in good faith, ensuring that, on departure, the U.K. Will be offered an equitable deal that ensures both our and their economic future going forward whilst benefiting from the non EU deals which the UK can broker as an outward looking nation as third party beneficiaries?

Or.

B) knowing the UK will vote again on the deal they will do their absolute damndest to ensure that the UK will be left as an impoverished outcast with no leverage whatsoever in Europe or anywhere else, a nation of vagrant no-marks, severed from mutually beneficial trade with our current partners to act as a massive disincentive to the British public to vote again in defiance of their wishes and leave. Don't you think that our massive net contributor status worries them at all? Losing the UK is a disaster for them. It cannot be allowed to go ahead whatever the cost. A second referendum would mean us literally throwing what little negotiation cards we hold down the toilet.

Am I alone in seeing this most basic flaw in the remain stance? We'd be better off saying we will have a second vote to rejoin in 5 years after leaving than stupidly agreeing to one BEFORE we even negotiate. Are people really that thick that they can't see it? Why isn't the leave camp shouting this every time the subject comes up?

I see your point. First let me be clear. If I said 'second referendum' then that was a lack of focus on my part. I want a final parliamentary vote, not a second referendum. I don't agree with referenda. Apologies if I mislead.

My view is that it is more complicated. The effect of of whether or not having a final parliamentary vote on negociations depends on the desired outcome of the EU, and also whether or not the plan to have a final parliamentary vote is made public or not. Mosty I suspect it depends on whether the 27 want us to stay or leave. This is actually not a simle as it seems; I personally can't determine whether Gremany of France want us to stay or leave, let alone the smaller states. The outcome will depend on the EU sharing a common view, in the end, so let's imagine, first that they all want us to stay.

1. If they KNOW our decision to leave is fixed they will be like any spouse who didn't want the divorce. When they see the hubby panting after his new younger missus (the UK panting after its new freedom and special deals with New Zealand, China and Brazil) they will punish us as hard as they can. The only thing that brings parties to their senses in such divorces is custody of the children. I am not sure there is an equivalent of children in this analogy since, despite a lot of noise to the contrary, our military is ours and not part of a European super army, and our waters are ours and revert to us after the divorce just as children from a previous marriage stay with their biological parents (unless there is just cause etc). No, actually, exerting punishment is easy as this is basically a childless marriage, and it would be easy to move on and have absolutely nothing to do with us if it suits. Let us hope that punishing us from leaving is not a common view in the EU right now.....regardless of whether we have a cheeky pariamentary vote after the court case or not.

2. If they know we are going to have a vote on the divorce settlement and they don't want a divorce, they will have to think about the best way to play it. I agree that one way would be to be absolute ******** during negociations, demanding tariff free access to our markets in return for us accepting all existant rules (no change from current arrangements except we get no vote), free movement of people and a soft border, OR a hard border (passports and visas, even between north and south in Ireland) and massive amounts of paperwork over everything from health and safety for cross channel lorries to compliance with every item imported or exported. I cannot see the EU pressing for the latter (madness and a burdon for them too). So they will push for the former. Which is.....their current preference! Frankly I think that any deal that is anywhere between either stance (no change except our loss of voting poser to total hard Brexit) is unacceptable, and would not pass a vote in the UK parliament. So, yes, I agree with you.....however it is not that simple....please read on.....

The bottom line is that regardless of whether the EU try to punish us or love us, the outcome is going to be bad. Nevertheless we have posters on here who want a walk-away utter-hard Brexit. I can't see our government allowing this.

Something else to consider is that we CAN have a vote and we DO NOT have to announce it now - maybe this is what May is up to.....although she has not dsplayed much cunning in all this so far.

Anyay let us now consider what would happen if they all want us to leave:

1. If they think we are going to leave whatever the outcome of discussions, they would simply try to negociate so things favour them most. What do they want? Access to our markets and goods? What are they prepared to offer for low/no tarrifs? I guess I'd offer the same low/no tarrifs. In other words, no change from now. That of course would mean that we would not be able to stop our own industries being undercut by state subsidies industry in the EU (vide the printing of passports). I suspect we have more to lose in such a blanket deal so I am not sure 'free trade' is necessarily what I want. What about free movement of people? We are against this and they are for it, especially with respect to the right to stay indefinitely and the right to work. I guess the issue here is how much the EU states care about the right of their own citizens to move here. So this is exactly where we are now - nobody really knows what the other side wants or what will happen, but the outcome is certain - the UK will leave regardless. For whom is getting a good deal most critical? UK obviously. The most important thing for the EU here is probably movement of people rather than trade, with the pressure coming from the new members in the east (who can veto any deal). The pressure is all on us really, and we have no real bargaining chip as we are going to leave anyway.....

2. If they know we are going to have a vote and they want us to leave then they don't need to engage with us at all. They will want parliament to vote leave at the end of negociations. This means only one outcome - hard brexit and no deals. This also means that EU nations would need to be telling their peope to get out of the UK now. Hard Brexit means their citizens lose the right of abode and the right to work (what the likes of PPF on here want).

I guess the question then is does the EU want us to leave or not? If they do we are screwed (in terms of deals offered) regardless of whether the EU think that parliament will have another vote on it or not. If the EU want us to stay (i.e., they still love us) they will try to be nice regardless of whether they think parliament will have a final vote or not.

My guess is we are stuck in some unholy darkspace in between each of these scenarios. I think there are some MPs who think we can and will have a final vote in parliament on whether to leave or not (I am assured that we can legally do this, albeit the Mail and Sun will be up in arms if we do). There are other MPs who think we cannot and must not have a vote. Likewise ther are some EU states who really want us to stay, others who are unsure or unconcerned, and others who would love to see the back of us.

So I don't see that having a final parliamentary vote is a bad thing (I think it is essential) but I don't necessarily think it should be made public now that his will happen. I want the EU to know that if we do have a final vote it may mean we don't leave. However I suspect there are many in the EU who know this already (that parlimnt will hav a final vote).

All in all - what an insane mess - the reason why I said a while ago that David Cameron is hands down the worst UK PM ever.

 

[W.C.]

Story will run for another 6 days or so, then the issue will move on to something else for Remainers to moan about. We had a referendum Leave won, we just need to get on with it now, get behind the country and stop the friggin moaning.

Do you have this reply at the ready to copy and paste ad infinitum?

 

[hans kraay fan club]

Story will run for another 6 days or so, then the issue will move on to something else for Remainers to moan about. We had a referendum Leave won, we just need to get on with it now, get behind the country and stop the friggin moaning.

No thanks

 

[hans kraay fan club]

And if that referendum swings slightly towards stay it will be OK for people like me to push for a third referendum and so on and so on ?

You’d be well within your rights to campaign for that, yes.

 

[pauli cee]

Brittany Kaiser director at CA for 4 years has gone public saying they were involved in a pro Brexit campaign!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=krY8DW3V2NU

Yep, I would, (probably)

 

[nicko31]

Summary of what the whistleblower claims about the official Leave campaign:

They broke spending limits
They lied to voters
Then they tried to cover it up
Then, after the whistleblower made these claims, one of Theresa May’s top aides, was accused of outing him as gay.

These are allegations that go to the heart of Theresa May’s Government. It’s clear the narrow referendum win for Leave is tainted.

Brexiteers and their allies in the right-wing media will do everything they can to play this story down.

Expect more revelations from Channel 4 News this week. For the sake of the wider democracy in out nation, they must not be allowed to get away with this

 

[The Rivet]

Summary of what the whistleblower claims about the official Leave campaign:

They broke spending limits
They lied to voters
Then they tried to cover it up
Then, after the whistleblower made these claims, one of Theresa May’s top aides, was accused of outing him as gay.

These are allegations that go to the heart of Theresa May’s Government. It’s clear the narrow referendum win for Leave is tainted.

Brexiteers and their allies in the right-wing media will do everything they can to play this story down.

Expect more revelations from Channel 4 News this week. For the sake of the wider democracy in out nation, they must not be allowed to get away with this

Get it all out! Oh warrior...You will feel better.....................

 

[Deleted member 22389]

I was reminded on the radio yesterday that the government spent £9M posting booklets through everyone's doors.

 

[Klaas]

I was reminded on the radio yesterday that the government spent £9M posting booklets through everyone's doors.

Was that illegal?
Because alleged illegal spending by Vote Leave is the story here (amongst others). Why are you and others willfully trying to dismiss that?

 

[DavidinSouthampton]

Story will run for another 6 days or so, then the issue will move on to something else for Remainers to moan about. We had a referendum Leave won, we just need to get on with it now, get behind the country and stop the friggin moaning.

And when that win was based on some very dubious practice, lies, deliberate and organised rule-breaking and the like, it's more than moaning........

 

[Deleted member 22389]

Was that illegal?
Because alleged illegal spending by Vote Leave is the story here (amongst others). Why are you and others willfully trying to dismiss that?

I'm dismissing it, because there is no point in moaning about it, it's done, gone, finished. There will be no second referendum.

 

[Baldseagull]

You have the same view as Nigel Farage but I believe accepting the outcome of free and fair elections, seeing that the will of the majority is enacted even if I passionately disagree with the result is an important democratic principle and a long-standing UK tradition.

What if it wasn't free and fair though?

 

[Klaas]

I'm dismissing it, because there is no point in moaning about it, it's done, gone, finished. There will be no second referendum.

wtf?? And what if it's shown that their activities have been illegal.

 

[sparkie]

Summary of what the whistleblower claims about the official Leave campaign:

They broke spending limits
They lied to voters
Then they tried to cover it up
Then, after the whistleblower made these claims, one of Theresa May’s top aides, was accused of outing him as gay.

These are allegations that go to the heart of Theresa May’s Government. It’s clear the narrow referendum win for Leave is tainted.

Brexiteers and their allies in the right-wing media will do everything they can to play this story down.

Expect more revelations from Channel 4 News this week. For the sake of the wider democracy in out nation, they must not be allowed to get away with this

It is great there is now widespread knowledge of Cambridge Analytica's shenanigans. That 'rot' can now be dealt with.

However, who seriously believes that beyond a couple of scapegoats getting slapped wrists, that this will actually go anywhere ?

It'll all be swept under the carpet, and filed under 'Put our heads in the sand; Ignore'.

 

[nicko31]

And when that win was based on some very dubious practice, lies, deliberate and organised rule-breaking and the like, it's more than moaning........

The Tories will try and brush it under the carpet and hope it goes away. Boris's lies continue I see

Democracy is under attack not just in the UK, but across the world. We're at the dangerous crossroads

 

[rippleman]

I don't do social media. I voted Leave.

Who do I blame?!!