Calais

[BadFish]

That, my friend, is an absurd statement. Of course I realise that it is a worldwide problem - how can one not see that? The difference between us is that the South East mirrors these problems on a scale that you do not see. The South East is hardly a bubble - what is going on here is exactly what is going on in many other countries.

Well i was confused.

So your suggestion is that I cannot see the scope of this global problem from the tiny part of the planet that I live on yet you can from yours. The difference between us is that i accept that I cannot see the whole problem so choose to find information from people who spend their time and efforts looking at it as a whole and reporting what they find rather than relying on a view taken from one tiny part.

What is going on in the South East of England may be exactly what is going on in many other countries but it is also a drop in the ocean compared to what is going on in many others.

 

[BadFish]

Quote: "problem affecting us" and "bubble of south east England" and "right wing media propaganda"
Have thousands traveled through many many borders to get to Oz?, do you have thousands around 22 miles away trying any means possible to enter your country?.
The south east is fairly packed, just a part of England, where as you live in a country about 30 TIMES the size with about a QUARTER of the population, so is it "a a massive worldwide problem"..... or a problem that "affects" some worldwide.

If you are interested you can look into this and find out what is going on in Australia, its not easy though because the government have stopped telling us about any boats that arrive. Look up Manus Island though, it makes for interesting reading.

I think you will find that 15000 miles from you it is not what you perceive as just ""right wing media propaganda", many are worried which is why there has been a fairly muted stance from the usually vocal liberals over here.
Yours sincerely
A member of the "bubble of south east England"

Obviously there are many people that are worried it does seem though that people struggle to find any compelling evidence to back up their worries (as this thread demonstrates). Lots of right wing propaganda though (not so much on this thread to be fair)

Answer me two questions Soulman
What is it you are worried about in terms of these people at calais?
Would processing them and deporting the ones that are not refugees help with these problems?

 

[Soulman]

Well back to Calais, the thread title.
"But Jerome Vignon, who has been working on a report about migrants in France, said they were unlikely to be deterred by the security measures.
He said many migrants would have travelled for 18 months to reach Calais, by which time they had "suffered a lot and they are out of cash" and were determined to reach the UK.
Officers said they tried to stop migrants overnight on Friday, in what they said was a quieter night in Calais.
But they acknowledged dozens may have made it on to lorries and into freight carriages in trains."

So how do the figures of asylum seekers/illegals deported etc stack up when many i presume have entered the country and disappeared.
Some have traveled 18months, across many borders to get to the UK......why is that then.

 

[Marty___Mcfly]

In regard to the percentage which are men- that's based on every piece of news footage I have ever seen about the issue over the years.

As for the 95%, I would call that a guess, but based on the fact that none of them were interested in claiming asylum in the first country they arrived in, which is what they are meant to do, the only logical explanation for them to continue to travel on illegally through a number of other countries, and then risk their own lives to illegally enter the UK, to me seems to be related to other motives than escaping a dangerous situation back home, the most obvious one being economic migration.

 

[BigGully]

If you are interested you can look into this and find out what is going on in Australia, its not easy though because the government have stopped telling us about any boats that arrive. Look up Manus Island though, it makes for interesting reading.



Obviously there are many people that are worried it does seem though that people struggle to find any compelling evidence to back up their worries (as this thread demonstrates). Lots of right wing propaganda though (not so much on this thread to be fair)

Answer me two questions Soulman
What is it you are worried about in terms of these people at calais?
Would processing them and deporting the ones that are not refugees help with these problems?

It seems those that are making runs for the UK, are criminals, desperate perhaps, but most criminal acts are driven by being desperate to lesser or greater degrees.

They seem to have no respect for local laws, people or livelihoods.

I cannot see any advantage in passively accepting them, I cannot see why we have to process refugee statuses of migrants that find themselves illegally in another country.

 

[BadFish]

It seems those that are making runs for the UK, are criminals, desperate perhaps, but most criminal acts are driven by being desperate to lesser or greater degrees.

They seem to have no respect for local laws, people or livelihoods.

If this is true then I would agree, but how have you come to these conclusions?

I cannot see any advantage in passively accepting them, I cannot see why we have to process refugee statuses of migrants that find themselves illegally in another country.

Because otherwise this situation doesn't change.

 

[Bry Nylon]

Countless millions spent on extra fences, dogs, police, infra-red etc.
Countless millions wasted on Operation Stack.
South Kent grinding to a halt - again costing millions and having a massive adverse impact on the people living there.

Instead of spending the money like this, just round them all up today and sick them on planes back to their country of origin tomorrow and bulldoze their shanty town on Monday. If they genuinely can't go back to their country of origin - (ie Syria), house them in a secure detention centre.

Job done.

 

[Soulman]

demonstrates).

Answer me two questions Soulman
What is it you are worried about in terms of these people at calais?
Would processing them and deporting the ones that are not refugees help with these problems?

Ok, i will bite even though i think particularly your first question is there for you to come back with the usual labels.

If the people in Calais manage to get through then thousands more will turn up, where will it end. Why are so many willing to travel across numerous borders,asylum can be seeked in the nearest country. How many are terrorists, or have criminal records amongst the genuine. How much more immigration can we take.

Your second question.
How can you process and deport those that are trying to enter when they are attempting to get in by stowing away on lorries, freight etc.....they will just disappear on arrival, as seen in the last couple of days with people cutting their way out of the canvas on the lorry and jumping out.
"The knock-on effect of the tens of thousands of Africans, Arabs and Asians arriving in Europe means stowaways are believed to be slipping into the UK unnoticed at a rate of 350 a week, up from 150 last year." What are the backgrounds of these people that are getting in illegally, how many are not picked up.
"Disturbing images shot by stunned motorists show eight men, some armed with knives, clambering through two holes cut in the canvas and drop on to the tarmac.

The gang then sprint away from the Romanian-registered lorry and disappear into nearby woods."
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/583611/Pictures-shocking-migrants-invasion
What about the burden on the system, the process etc

 

[BigGully]

If this is true then I would agree, but how have you come to these conclusions?



Because otherwise this situation doesn't change.

They are aware that they runs for the UK are illegal, when they rip open the lorry linings they know that it is illegal and has financial implications for the hauliers, the south east of England has no great regard for further migrants within their communities.

These migrants are fit, healthy and determined and seem to engage in regular illegal activities, it neednt be rewarded just because they are perceived as desperate.

 

[Butch Willykins]

meanwhile dave is in Indonesia promising help to defend their airports from ISIS ..........ffs
the words pissup and brewery come to mind

Piss up and booze cruise would be more relevant.

 

[BadFish]

Trying not to get bogged down in their intentions (which lets face it none of know for sure)

I just can't see how the current situation is preferable to processing their applications and sorting out the ones who need genuine help from the economic migrants and terrorists and dealing with them appropriately.

This would have the added benefit of the opportunity for a show of strength for the bogus ones to deter others as well as clearing the Chunnel and lessening all the other hassles.

Let's face it at the moment they have nothing to lose by waiting it out for an opportunity to sneak across and doing what they want to do. Perhaps being a bit proactive about it would help those in need of help, force the hand of the wrong uns and deter any future wrong uns

 

[Soulman]

Obviously there are many people that are worried it does seem though that people struggle to find any compelling evidence to back up their worries (as this thread demonstrates). Lots of right wing propaganda though (not so much on this thread to be fair)

If you look through the thread, normally a subject like this would end up with many opposing arguments, and to appease what you perceive, left and right wing views, and the ongoing insults.
In this case there are either the usual ones being quiet, or perhaps the worries cross both wings.
I think you are out of touch with how most feel re Calais living so far away, and you have gently steered it into a "worldwide" problem, when clearly it is a major problem for some countries, others not so.

 

[BigGully]

I just can't see how this situation is preferable to processing their applications and sorting out the ones who need genuine help from the economic migrants and terrorists and dealing with them appropriately.

Why have you not acknowledged the criminality, without sanctions they will be further numbers of illegal migrants if you even consider rewarding current ones with a passive response of processing.

This has been the main problem downstream, no clear sanctions or policy of return, it has incentivised their actions, just because they are a stones throw away from our own borders, it isnt the time to reward their actions.

 

[BadFish]

If you look through the thread, normally a subject like this would end up with many opposing arguments, and to appease what you perceive, left and right wing views, and the ongoing insults.
In this case there are either the usual ones being quiet, or perhaps the worries cross both wings.
I think you are out of touch living so far away.

Interesting point but it could also be that the lack of people getting involved in this thread shows that people are not as worried as you (and the usual suspects on these kinds of thread).

Maybe I am out of touch but it is interesting that these threads never produce much compelling evidence and rely more on anecdotal evidence and conjecture. As I have said I don't know how many of those people at Calais are economic migrants or illegal immigrants but then I don't think anyone else does either.

 

[BadFish]

Why have you not acknowledged the criminality, without sanctions they will be further numbers of illegal migrants if you even consider rewarding current ones with a passive response of processing.

This has been the main problem downstream, no clear sanctions or policy of return, it has incentivised their actions, just because they are a stones throw away from our own borders, it isnt the time to reward their actions.

Sorry got to that later in my edit.

 

[BigGully]

Interesting point but it could also be that the lack of people getting involved in this thread shows that people are not as worried as you (and the usual suspects on these kinds of thread).

Maybe I am out of touch but it is interesting that these threads never produce much compelling evidence and rely more on anecdotal evidence and conjecture. As I have said I don't know how many of those people at Calais are economic migrants or illegal immigrants but then I don't think anyone else does either.

Whats the difference in consequences for us in England the recipient country whether they are illegal economic migrants or just illegal immigrants ??

 

[BadFish]

Whats the difference in consequences for us in England the recipient country whether they are illegal economic migrants or just illegal immigrants ??

none at all the distinction was accidental.

 

[Soulman]

I just can't see how the current situation is preferable to processing their applications and sorting out the ones who need genuine help from the economic migrants and terrorists and dealing with them appropriately.

So how would you "process their applications" bearing in mind that last night 800 were trying to board transport and 350 got into the "secure" unit.
Ask them to honestly answer a questionnaire whilst in Calais, have the resources to check the details in their country of origin, have people hidden in the woods etc in England ready to interview them.
They are trying to get into England illegally, some may have an awful lot to hide and the "bubble of the south east" will be the first to reap the consequences.

 

[BadFish]

So how would you "process their applications" bearing in mind that last night 800 were trying to board transport and 350 got into the "secure" unit.
Ask them to honestly answer a questionnaire whilst in Calais, have the resources to check the details in their country of origin, have people hidden in the woods etc in England ready to interview them.
They are trying to get into England illegally, some may have an awful lot to hide and the "bubble of the south east" will be the first to reap the consequences.

You are getting into details here and to be honest i haven't though this deeply (a job for the government surely?) However you already have the means to process applications (see post to Hasting Gull earlier) so you move them from Calais to the UK for processing. I have heard there is a tunnel?

Out of interest how would you deal with this problem?

 

[BensGrandad]

Are there not a number of old Army and RAF Barracks unusstoped that could be made secure and the immigrants taken there for holding while an application to stay is made. If refused put them on a plane back to their original homeland. My idea of opening Dunkirk etc was said to ease operation stack not illegal immigrants. A lot could be said for closing Euro tunnel for a time paying compensation or perhaps starting it at other stations and not stopping at Calais going straight into the tunnel for a period of time. When they build camps near another station do the same with that not stop at that station. Inconvenient but would curb the flow.