In your 20s and you drink real-ale?
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Bye Bye Harvey's ?
- Thread starter vegster
- Start date
In your 20s and you drink real-ale?
He's not the only one
Is that any relation to the late, lamented King and Barnes? I've never heard of it.
I started drinking Harveys at 17. My dad found me drinking lager and said he was going to introduce me to proper beer. He took me down to the Swan at Falmer bought me a pint of Harveys Best - I've not looked back since.
I did read about the demographic shifting a bit, and real ale sales increasing...albeit marginally. Most people know I do not like real ale but I have discovered The Meantime Brewery who do a nice lager. If any of you know any other indy breweries who make a lager type product please let me know.
Monkey Man
Your support is not that great
WJ King was founded by Bill King, ex MD of King & Barnes, after that brewery was sold to Badger.
He's now retired and sold WJ King to a former Harveys brewer.
He's now retired and sold WJ King to a former Harveys brewer.
Arthur
Well-known member
And what's wrong with that?
Sadly I'm no longer in my twenties but surely anyone with some tastebuds left regardless of age can appreciate cask ale?
I'm not going to get into a real ale is better than lager debate or a Harveys is better than Dark Star as it's all down to personal preference but I think Harveys is far from struggling! Still to this day my local has never stocked Harveys still gets people in requesting it simply because it's a pub that keeps real ale. The landlords response is if you want to drink Harveys got to any of the several other pubs in town that stock it.
Oh and for the record real ale is better than lager and Dark Star produce better beers
Durlston
"You plonker, Rodney!"
If kept well it goes down much better than lager that is full of chemicals and gives me a worse hangover the next day. I'm blaming Aftershock last night for feeling so fragile. How I got home I don't know. The ticket inspector gave up asking to see tickets as everyone was so f***ed.
Cosmic Joker
The Motorik
Dark Star are undoubtedly more dynamic and innovative than Harveys these days but Harveys still do a mighty fine pint in which i include as well as the Best in particular Olympia, Old, Tom Paine and XX Mild. Their range hasn't significantly changed, bar the odd special, for a few years though, so am excited to hear about their new micro plant, which should enable them to take on the very strong competition from the expanded Dark Star more directly.
However, Harveys are far from in decline demand-wise, quite the opposite their problem has been that their production capacity at the brewery limits their output below what they could sell if they pushed harder. So they haven't been pushing harder, so they charge - non-tied - pubs a lot more per barrel than Dark Star do and their customer service to publicans from the conversations i have been party to is a lot less responsive, including late deliveries. This is what is behind a number of pubs who drop Harveys from their range, but there are always other establishments who take up the demand because lots of drinkers look for Harveys as it's like mother's milk to many who grew up in Sussex.
For example the Bull Inn in Chichester has just re-opened as a free house after a period in the doldrums and first in the range of beers to be offered is Harveys Best with plans for more Harveys beers alongside a range of Sussex and Hants micros.
However, Harveys are far from in decline demand-wise, quite the opposite their problem has been that their production capacity at the brewery limits their output below what they could sell if they pushed harder. So they haven't been pushing harder, so they charge - non-tied - pubs a lot more per barrel than Dark Star do and their customer service to publicans from the conversations i have been party to is a lot less responsive, including late deliveries. This is what is behind a number of pubs who drop Harveys from their range, but there are always other establishments who take up the demand because lots of drinkers look for Harveys as it's like mother's milk to many who grew up in Sussex.
For example the Bull Inn in Chichester has just re-opened as a free house after a period in the doldrums and first in the range of beers to be offered is Harveys Best with plans for more Harveys beers alongside a range of Sussex and Hants micros.
Cosmic Joker
The Motorik
Look out for Brewdog 77 Lager in bottles, have just been savouring one, very full hoppy flavour for a pilsner. Hard to get a regular supply other than ordering it off the Brewdog website http://www.brewdog.com/77_lager.php but does come up in larger Tescos. Brewdog also do Zeitgeist, a 4.9% black lager which I have yet to try.
Its really really nice but not something you`d immedietly recognise as coming from those Scottish boys................................ in other words the hops dont blow the top of your head off.
beorhthelm
A. Virgo, Football Genius
- Jul 21, 2003
- 36,016
i do think Harveys would benefit hugely in the future if they could produce a lager, or a wheat beer as a middle ground, to sell in the tied pubs and get cross over from the younger drinkers.
fataddick
Well-known member
Harvey's ain't going nowhere. I can't stand Sussex Best ("Lewes dishwater" as people with tastebuds call it) and agree they have been slow to adapt to the more modern innovative American-style craft-brewing techniques and ingredients utilised by younger breweries like Dark Star, Brewdog, Saltaire and Meantime. In the later respect, Harveys are in the process of setting up an experimental micro-brewery in one corner of their brewery for that sort of thing.
They have two big things in their favour:
1. Their history/prestige. People across the UK (and elsewhere) know of Harvey's, and many Northerners (denied it at home) will specifically seek it out when down South. The prestige in which Harveys is held can be seen in Head Brewer Miles Jenner winning UK Brewer of the Year last year.
2. Their size. Unlike modern breweries like Dark Star, who can expand from one industrial unit to another (DS are currently at their third brewery location) if and as they get bigger, Harveys are tied into a small historic brewery complex. They famously don't supply any pubs outside of a 50 mile radius of Lewes (except one, Charlie's Bar, in Copenhagen). They say this is because they are proud of being locally based, ethical yadda yadda yadda, the truth is they don't have the capacity to supply any more widely than that. If sales of Harvey's in Sussex drop, because the locals are wooed by the strawberry wheat bears and honey porters of the new breweries, Harvey's can quite easily just expand their distribution beyond that 50-mile radius (to people who can't currently get their beers, many of whom would clamour for it) to compensate.
So in summary, even though Harvey's Best is so vile I wouldn't even wash my hair with it (although Tom Paine, Copperwheat and 1859 Porter are aces), Harvey's aint going to disappear any time soon. Fact.
They have two big things in their favour:
1. Their history/prestige. People across the UK (and elsewhere) know of Harvey's, and many Northerners (denied it at home) will specifically seek it out when down South. The prestige in which Harveys is held can be seen in Head Brewer Miles Jenner winning UK Brewer of the Year last year.
2. Their size. Unlike modern breweries like Dark Star, who can expand from one industrial unit to another (DS are currently at their third brewery location) if and as they get bigger, Harveys are tied into a small historic brewery complex. They famously don't supply any pubs outside of a 50 mile radius of Lewes (except one, Charlie's Bar, in Copenhagen). They say this is because they are proud of being locally based, ethical yadda yadda yadda, the truth is they don't have the capacity to supply any more widely than that. If sales of Harvey's in Sussex drop, because the locals are wooed by the strawberry wheat bears and honey porters of the new breweries, Harvey's can quite easily just expand their distribution beyond that 50-mile radius (to people who can't currently get their beers, many of whom would clamour for it) to compensate.
So in summary, even though Harvey's Best is so vile I wouldn't even wash my hair with it (although Tom Paine, Copperwheat and 1859 Porter are aces), Harvey's aint going to disappear any time soon. Fact.
fataddick
Well-known member
Copperwheat is a wheat beer. Available on draught in June and bottles year round. It's an ale-style wheat beer though, I assume you mean a chilled gassed lager-style wheat beer. People who drink lager are of the mentality they will only drink the big brands they know anyway (how many DFL morons do we get every summer storming out of pubs if they didn't sell Fosters/Stella.
Beer breweries marketing lagers rarely works. Take Dark Star as an example. They used to make a lager (Natural Blonde) and a wheat beer (Spiced Vice). Well, actually, they didn't, they got someone else to make them, then just slapped their labels on them. Either way, they scrapped both after a couple of years as they simply weren't selling and/or worth the bother. I can't see how Harvey's experience would be any different.
Plus in the past you could argue the value of lager sales, that's not the case nowadays. The only beverage that's holding up (in pub sales) is real ale. Ale sales amongst younger drinkers in particular have risen loads in recent years. Lager tastes the same out of a can from a Calais hypermarket as it does from a keg in a pub, so why drink it in pubs when you can drink it much cheaper at home? Cask real ale (a living product requiring dedicated cellar skills) on the other hand...
vegster
Sanity Clause
- May 5, 2008
- 28,273
- Thread starter
- #36
Given the slow decline of pub drinking, it is a mystery how a newish brewery like Dark Star, has had to move to bigger premises twice in the last few years. Their increased production must be eating in to another brewers proiduction levels?
Mr Bronson
Member
- Feb 24, 2009
- 45
A friend runs a pub in town and last year they got rid of Harveys and replaced it with Dark Star because the wholesale price went up significantly. They came to the conclusion that the margins were so thin on Harveys it wasn't worth selling.
The reason you are seeing far more Dark Star brews in Brighton at present is because they have done a deal with the Zel pubs. Like the previously mentioned Signalman and around 30 other pubs in Brighton and Hove. Whilst Dark Star are expanding it is in their interest to do these type of deals. Many of these pubs are an example of how the Cask Ale business is changing, every Zel pub will have one ale as a minimum most have more than that. Ten years ago I had to get in to arguments with my mates as I only wanted to go to pubs that sold ale, now you will be hard pressed to find any that do not. Harvey's on the other hand, and as has been mentioned elsewhere, have no need to do this. They have enough customers to buy all their beer no matter what they do, and unfortunately that has led to some complacency on their part. This does not signal the death of Harvey's though as they are a profitable business still and it would take something major for this to change.
On my preferences it all depends on what situation I am in. Harvey's is a session beer in my opinion and will continue to be my drink of choice pre match on a Saturday. In the week when I am just having one or two beers I will tend to be more adventurous, choosing a couple of different ales ideally ones I have not tried before.
On my preferences it all depends on what situation I am in. Harvey's is a session beer in my opinion and will continue to be my drink of choice pre match on a Saturday. In the week when I am just having one or two beers I will tend to be more adventurous, choosing a couple of different ales ideally ones I have not tried before.
fataddick
Well-known member
Beer sales for small breweries like Dark Star were up 7.8% on average year on year, despite the recession. Ale has risen from about 5% of pub draught sales to 6% over recent years (still a tiny amount, but a 20% increase). There has been a far bigger increase in terms of bottled goods, ale now accounts for 21% of all beer sales apparently. You only have to look at how much supermarket space is given over to bottled ale nowadays, especuially in posher/greener supermarkets. Drinking a local ale is seen as environmentally friendly, compared to imported lager, so a lot of the increased sales is down to the Caroline Lucases and Hanover Set of this world. Dark Star's base just outside Brighton gives them access to one of the biggest eco-friendly audiences in Europe, and probably plays are far greater role in their expansion/success (both in supermarkets and pubs locally) than they'd ever admit. It's crazy that they haven't made more a play for the 'organic' and 'vegan' beer markets, in my opinion.
Many companies make huge increases within diminishing markets though Vegster. Its very often when the market weadles out the poorer products or just the poorly run. Anyway the cask/craft sector of the industry is pretty bouyant I think at the moment, its just the pissy lager areas which are in decline. £3.50 for a pint of gassy gnat`s piss ? Cant imagine why.