[Football] Bulgaria v England (7:45 ITV)

[Hastings gull]

A few thoughts on this now I've had a chance to think it through

England players = I wouldn't blame them for walking off and I wouldn't blame them for not walking off

Ref and officials = Surely they heard the racist chants. Why is it up to the players to report this? I get the ref has a lot on his plate but so do the players. There are 4 officials. Why has a ref never proactively reported racism and initiated the protocols

Bulgaria manager = His obliviousness is a symptom of the problem. He and the Bulgaria football hierarchy need to be cleared out straight away.

UEFA = Sat on their hands for decades. Now need to very quickly make an example of Bulgaria. My preference would be a suspended explusion from the following tournament (not this one which they're mostly out of anyway). The suspension should be activated on the next audible racist chant coming from terraces. No need to wait for it to happen three times

The current protocols = If you were at work and were told that the first 2 instances of racism against you were effectively ok, you'd probably think it wasn't being taken seriously enough. They should be scrapped and the match should always finish. However, the after match punishment should be severe enough to educate and deter. No more pretending it's not happening.

The Bulgarian neo Nazi bunch = We have problems. Most weren't even trying to hide their faces whilst doing Nazi salutes. If this doesn't indicate far right on the march I don't know what does. Interesting to me that they all left after the second stoppage. I've heard a lot that they were thrown out. Rubbish. There were barely any stewards there. Throwing out 80 odd fascists who don't want to leave would take a lot of man power and involves scuffles etc which weren't there. There's another explanation. They premeditated provoking the first 2 steps of the protocol, but not the 3rd. My guess was to make a point but not draw hostility from their home audience. Their purpose? recruitment.

Yes, interesting point in your last paragraph. I wondered why that rabble just then ambled out seemingly voluntarily -it just didn't make sense, and you could well be right; publicity is what they wanted. And, sadly, they got it.

 

[Eeyore]

The coverage of Sterling was quite obviously racially motivated albeit probably unconscious.

I'm also hoping that tonight doesn't turn onto an attack on Bulgarians. They are many in London (I know some) and I hate to think they are in fear of an attack because of some Neo Nazis back home.

Remember, we have them protesting outside our parliament too.

Quite clearly Bulgaria have to be banned from national competitions for a year or two and the manager needs to put under pressure to resign.

It's really the only way. If our own idiots behave in the same way, I'd expect the same.

I don't want to see them banned. That is punishing innocent folk too much. I just think playing behind closed doors is the answer.

 

[Bakero]

Plamen Iliev, the Bulgarian keeper, said “If I am honest, I believe they [the fans] behaved well today,” Iliev said. “There wasn’t any abuse [as far as I could hear] and I think they [the England players] overreacted a bit. The public was on a good level – I didn’t hear any bad language used towards their or our players.”

https://www.theguardian.com/footbal...nd-says-england-players-overreacted-euro-2020

 

[HAILSHAM SEAGULL]

Jeremy Vine has Mark Bright on his show and he is rightly condemming the Bulgarian Racist Ultras.....bit ironic as his own "ultras", the HF dress the same way

 

[Hastings gull]

I don't want to see them banned. That is punishing innocent folk too much. I just think playing behind closed doors is the answer.

I see what you are saying and I am sure that most of us would want to avoid the innocent majority being punished. But in reality both options will punish the innocent fan, as they cannot see their team in either scenario. If the punishment is truly going to fit the crime, and the footballing authorities over there are going to make a genuine attempt to combat racism, then the innocent fan will suffer. Sad but inevitable. If there is another solution, then fine, but I can't see what else there is, which would have the same effect.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Jeremy Vine has Mark Bright on his show and he is rightly condemming the Bulgarian Racist Ultras.....bit ironic as his own "ultras", the HF dress the same way

Clothing and actions/words are different. A clumsy sentence but I think you know what I mean.

Wearing a black hooded jacket doesn't make a racist.

 

[Seasider78]

I respect the players decision to play on it that was the consensus of the group but personally I think walking off would have been a much more powerful message

Our players have shown incredible strength to press on and play under those conditions but the truth is they should not have to. It needed a no nonsense message of rejection that part and parcel of a professional footballers life is not to have to try to close out racist abuse directed at them.

UEFA now have time to sit back and wait for things to die down before issuing some token fine and a behind closed door match.

Let’s not forget aside from the captain of Bulgaria the manager, goalkeeper and press and largely come out and played down the abuse and I think they needed making an example of

 

[The Wizard]

They need to be banned or suspended indefintiely, the problems in Eastern Europe are a disgrace, i understand it would be punishing entire nations for a minority but it really has to be done now, you can’t have this kind of thing happening and the few people who are genuine fans I’m sure will understand why it needs to happen. Credit to the Bulgaria captain but the rest of the denial from their hierarchy is a massive part of the problem, it’s a total disgrace, Popov is the only Bulgarian to come out with any credit.

As for England, much better performance... Mings I thought was particularly good.

 

[Lower West Stander]

Unlike almost everywhere in the world.

It annoys me when people claim the UK is a racist country. Sure, we have our issues, but we are ahead of virtually every other country in the world on that front. One Chelsea fan shouts something racist at Sterling and it's front page news in every paper here. Whole blocks of supporters abuse a black player every time he gets the ball in other countries, and it's barely mentioned anywhere. I just don't think the rest of the world (or large parts of it at least) are that fussed about it, they just don't think like we do. In fact, they probably can't see why we get so uptight about it.

Absolutely agree.

Try sitting in the back of a New York cab and listen to some of the stuff the drivers come out with. Or Italian football officials blaming players for the racist abuse being directed at.them.

In this country we'd equate that to Stephen Yaxley-Lennon as way beyond the mainstream view......

 

[Guinness Boy]

A few thoughts on this now I've had a chance to think it through

England players = I wouldn't blame them for walking off and I wouldn't blame them for not walking off

Ref and officials = Surely they heard the racist chants. Why is it up to the players to report this? I get the ref has a lot on his plate but so do the players. There are 4 officials. Why has a ref never proactively reported racism and initiated the protocols

Bulgaria manager = His obliviousness is a symptom of the problem. He and the Bulgaria football hierarchy need to be cleared out straight away.

UEFA = Sat on their hands for decades. Now need to very quickly make an example of Bulgaria. My preference would be a suspended explusion from the following tournament (not this one which they're mostly out of anyway). The suspension should be activated on the next audible racist chant coming from terraces. No need to wait for it to happen three times

The current protocols = If you were at work and were told that the first 2 instances of racism against you were effectively ok, you'd probably think it wasn't being taken seriously enough. They should be scrapped and the match should always finish. However, the after match punishment should be severe enough to educate and deter. No more pretending it's not happening.

The Bulgarian neo Nazi bunch = We have problems. Most weren't even trying to hide their faces whilst doing Nazi salutes. If this doesn't indicate far right on the march I don't know what does. Interesting to me that they all left after the second stoppage. I've heard a lot that they were thrown out. Rubbish. There were barely any stewards there. Throwing out 80 odd fascists who don't want to leave would take a lot of man power and involves scuffles etc which weren't there. There's another explanation. They premeditated provoking the first 2 steps of the protocol, but not the 3rd. My guess was to make a point but not draw hostility from their home audience. Their purpose? recruitment.

I've just highlighted the points I want to respond to as I think I agree 100% on the non bold stuff.

Regarding the current protocols, I find it difficult. It's not work, where you should be out on your first strike, it's a game of football that's had a lot of away fans spend good money to travel and see, clubs give up their players for over a week, TV schedules changed, advertising paid for etc etc. To hand control of whether that takes place to a few monkey chanters with barely a brain cell between them feels somehow like you are giving them more power than they deserve. I think three strikes is fair enough in this context. The change I would make is that the punishment if even one of the strikes in invoked is severe and punishes the fans. Closed doors games, travel ban and, for good measure, diplomatic pressure put on those in charge. It was great to see the Bulgarian PM call for their FA's head to go. That's what invoking the protocols should ultimately achieve.

I think you're spot on in the last bit of your last paragraph. Absolutely a recruitment effort and something that they, not the stadium authorities were in charge of until the last one of them left. So, to refer back to the previous paragraph, closed doors games and travel bans deny them the oxygen of further publicity,

 

[blue-shifted]

I've just highlighted the points I want to respond to as I think I agree 100% on the non bold stuff.

Regarding the current protocols, I find it difficult. It's not work, where you should be out on your first strike, it's a game of football that's had a lot of away fans spend good money to travel and see, clubs give up their players for over a week, TV schedules changed, advertising paid for etc etc. To hand control of whether that takes place to a few monkey chanters with barely a brain cell between them feels somehow like you are giving them more power than they deserve. I think three strikes is fair enough in this context. The change I would make is that the punishment if even one of the strikes in invoked is severe and punishes the fans. Closed doors games, travel ban and, for good measure, diplomatic pressure put on those in charge. It was great to see the Bulgarian PM call for their FA's head to go. That's what invoking the protocols should ultimately achieve.

I think you're spot on in the last bit of your last paragraph. Absolutely a recruitment effort and something that they, not the stadium authorities were in charge of until the last one of them left. So, to refer back to the previous paragraph, closed doors games and travel bans deny them the oxygen of further publicity,

To a footballer, that is their place of work. Their employer and governing body owes a duty of care in exactly the same way

 

[Hastings gull]

Plamen Iliev, the Bulgarian keeper, said “If I am honest, I believe they [the fans] behaved well today,” Iliev said. “There wasn’t any abuse [as far as I could hear] and I think they [the England players] overreacted a bit. The public was on a good level – I didn’t hear any bad language used towards their or our players.”

https://www.theguardian.com/footbal...nd-says-england-players-overreacted-euro-2020

I suppose that it is possible, given that he would have been at one end, but seems utterly unlikely. More a question of "my country, right or wrong."

 

[Guinness Boy]

To a footballer, that is their place of work. Their employer and governing body owes a duty of care in exactly the same way

Fair enough point but it's also a job where you get to ram the racist's message straight back up their backside just by doing your job to standard. It's not the same as being stuck in an office or a building site with a racist bully.

If Mings, Sterling and the other black players had wanted to lead a walk off last night they'd have had my full support. They had the option and chose to play on. That, to me, offers them duty of care.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Fair enough point but it's also a job where you get to ram the racist's message straight back up their backside just by doing your job to standard. It's not the same as being stuck in an office or a building site with a racist bully.

If Mings, Sterling and the other black players had wanted to lead a walk off last night they'd have had my full support. They had the option and chose to play on. That, to me, offers them duty of care.

Duty of care on this occasion, but then steps should be made to make sure it applies to future occasions.

 

[sydney]

Bulgaria ....tsk....

 

[Guinness Boy]

Duty of care on this occasion, but then steps should be made to make sure it applies to future occasions.

That was the point of the second paragraph of my original reply to blue-shifted. Let the players play on if they want, let the game do the talking if that's what the targets think the best response is, but then hit the offenders hard after the game.

 

[Eeyore]

Jeremy Vine has Mark Bright on his show and he is rightly condemming the Bulgarian Racist Ultras.....bit ironic as his own "ultras", the HF dress the same way

Many teams have an 'ultras' set. Not all are linked to extremist attitudes.

I'm sure that if Crystal Palace weren't our rivals this wouldn't have been brought up. It's a cheap and embarrassing shot.

The Palace fans don't make Nazi signs and do funky gibbon impressions when a black opposition player has the ball.

It's like saying that because fascists often have skinheads then no-one else is allowed to.

 

[blue-shifted]

Fair enough point but it's also a job where you get to ram the racist's message straight back up their backside just by doing your job to standard. It's not the same as being stuck in an office or a building site with a racist bully.

If Mings, Sterling and the other black players had wanted to lead a walk off last night they'd have had my full support. They had the option and chose to play on. That, to me, offers them duty of care.

Hmm, but does it matter that we are better. Surely the racism would be just as bad as if we were sh*t and they beat us 6-0

I don't see why this should be up to the players. Again in my workplace if I was being racially abused, I don't think i'd be happy if the proposed solution was that I didn't attend for a while.

The players on the pitch should have no say. It's not fair to put this pressure on their shoulders, they are there to play. The authorities, including the officials, the FA and the international governing bodies have a duty to make sure they work in a safe workplace.

If they are failing with this, which they are, the PFA should be suing the various bodies for damages. Which is exactly what I would want my union to do if my employer and relevant bodies were failing to protect me in this way.

 

[blue-shifted]

Many teams have an 'ultras' set. Not all are linked to extremist attitudes.

I'm sure that if Crystal Palace weren't our rivals this wouldn't have been brought up. It's a cheap and embarrassing shot.

The Palace fans don't make Nazi signs and do funky gibbon impressions when a black opposition player has the ball.

It's like saying that because fascists often have skinheads then no-one else is allowed to.

You're right. people using Bulgaria's racism problem to have a pop at Palace are out of order. If the Palace lot are being racist then draw the link. I've not see evidence that they are

 

[Horses Arse]

Many teams have an 'ultras' set. Not all are linked to extremist attitudes.

I'm sure that if Crystal Palace weren't our rivals this wouldn't have been brought up. It's a cheap and embarrassing shot.

The Palace fans don't make Nazi signs and do funky gibbon impressions when a black opposition player has the ball.

It's like saying that because fascists often have skinheads then no-one else is allowed to.

Reclaiming or assimilating the uniform of facists and making a statement of 'good' is one thing, eg skinheads being adopted by others with very different behaviours.

Adopting a uniform for purposes of association because you think it makes you tough and edgy and because you think that's what being a football fan means, is entirely different.

100% the always ultras dress and act like they do because they think the right wing racist uniform is cool and tough. It might not make them facists but it does make them *****

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