[Football] Bulgaria v England (7:45 ITV)

[clapham_gull]

The publicity about expected racist chanting made it more likely to happen, in my opinion.

Sorry have to disagree. A few clubs have a far right problem in Bulgaria. This wasn't pissed up lads joining in with the rest. There have been a number of games over there where fans are wearing "pro racism" T Shirts and Nazi salutes.

It takes everything to a whole new level and is done very publically.





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[Brovion]

Unlike almost everywhere in the world.

It annoys me when people claim the UK is a racist country. Sure, we have our issues, but we are ahead of virtually every other country in the world on that front. One Chelsea fan shouts something racist at Sterling and it's front page news in every paper here. Whole blocks of supporters abuse a black player every time he gets the ball in other countries, and it's barely mentioned anywhere. I just don't think the rest of the world (or large parts of it at least) are that fussed about it, they just don't think like we do. In fact, they probably can't see why we get so uptight about it.

Exactly. Large parts of the world aren't really fussed about racism and think it's a bit of a weird English obsession. UEFA definitely think that, that's why they give out harsher penalties for unlicensed advertising.

And yes, of course we have a problem with racism in this country, but to compare us to Bulgaria is whataboutery on a massive scale. Indeed such is the gulf between the two nations if I were the Bulgarian FA I wouldn't even try and defend it, rather I'd go on the offensive and say that racism is part of our culture and you British should respect that. Certainly the Bulgarian manager "didn't hear" any racist chanting, so whatever went on was just normal banter for him.

 

[clapham_gull]

Bulgaria PM demands Bulgarian FA Chief resigns threatening to break all relationships and funding.

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[Commander]

Exactly. Large parts of the world aren't really fussed about racism and think it's a bit of a weird English obsession. UEFA definitely think that, that's why they give out harsher penalties for unlicensed advertising.

And yes, of course we have a problem with racism in this country, but to compare us to Bulgaria is whataboutery on a massive scale. Indeed such is the gulf between the two nations if I were the Bulgarian FA I wouldn't even try and defend it, rather I'd go on the offensive and say that racism is part of our culture and you British should respect that. Certainly the Bulgarian manager "didn't hear" any racist chanting, so whatever went on was just normal banter for him.

Just imagine when an England player comes out as gay. Imagine what he'll have to put up with in these countries. That will be another battle altogether.

Part of me does sometimes wonder whether it's us being racist by demanding that all other countries behave in the same way and have the same customs as we do though! I'm sure they think 'What the hell does it have to do with you?'.

 

[Hamilton]

Just imagine when an England player comes out as gay. Imagine what he'll have to put up with in these countries. That will be another battle altogether.

Part of me does sometimes wonder whether it's us being racist by demanding that all other countries behave in the same way and have the same customs as we do though! I'm sure they think 'What the hell does it have to do with you?'.

It's not a 'custom' to treat people with the same rights and respects regardless of their skin colour or sexuality. It's a fundamental right. I'm sure that's not what you meant.

 

[Hugo Rune]

Bulgaria PM demands Bulgarian FA Chief resigns threatening to break all relationships and funding.

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I wonder if he’d just told his PM that the fans only behaved as they did because they were whipped up by the British media and that their Monkey chanting wasn’t racist but was done to put the England players off!

 

[Guinness Boy]

Just imagine when an England player comes out as gay. Imagine what he'll have to put up with in these countries. That will be another battle altogether.

Part of me does sometimes wonder whether it's us being racist by demanding that all other countries behave in the same way and have the same customs as we do though! I'm sure they think 'What the hell does it have to do with you?'.

Yeah, we probably should have ignored apartheid too. None of our business and all that......

 

[Commander]

Yeah, we probably should have ignored apartheid too. None of our business and all that......

My point is I can see why one view of that subject could easily be "You enslaved half the world, but then you changed your minds and decided that was bad, and now you tell us we should behave like you do. **** off".

Not saying it is right (it clearly isn't) but I can see why other countries could think like this.

 

[zefarelly]

to save anyone clicking on a Daily Mail link

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...ief-to-resign-amid-racism-furor-idUSKBN1WU0W3

 

[Durlston]

I don’t think any Palace fan should be linked with those pieces of shit.

Nail on head.

When Wilfried Zaha wanted out at Palace in the summer, did the fans turn on him, call him a mercenary and boo constantly because of his actions? No. They kept cheering him, singing his name and he has now put all that behind him and playing excellent football again to repay them.

 

[Guinness Boy]

My point is I can see why one view of that subject could easily be "You enslaved half the world, but then you changed your minds and decided that was bad, and now you tell us we should behave like you do. **** off".

Not saying it is right (it clearly isn't) but I can see why other countries could think like this.

Actually that's probably a valid point. And the UK may pretend to be all kittens and rainbows but under the surface there's Farrage and Tommy, Britain First, Islamophobia and a real problem with knife and gun crime in the black community. I also wonder how many of those singing "you know what you are" last night were singing "no surrender" on Friday.

However, Eastern Europe in general (as well as parts of Italy) have huge problems with organised racism. It manifests itself at football matches but in other areas of their society too. As I posted last night I don't think threatening to stop a football match will stop that gang in the black hoods being far right, if anything it will entrench their views further and give them something to whinge about online. But, in a wider context, if the rest of the world lets these governments know how wrong these attitudes are we might get something happening where it does count, in government and authority.

That's kind of where I was going with the apartheid comment. It was flippant but the point was we only changed attitudes in white South Africa over a large number of years and, while sport was used as a weapon, so was diplomacy, journalism and sanctions.

 

[Kinky Gerbil]

There has to be a step between the fan/ground closure to kicking them out

They should be made to play all home World Cup qualifiers at a neutral venue/at the opponents ground.

That hits the fans and not the players.

 

[Bakero]

Don’t worry. Racist thugs here, won’t be upset by the actions of their like minded Bulgarian mates.

Well, that's an incredibly ignorant thing to say. Met many Bulgarians? Ever been there?

 

[Iggle Piggle]

Exactly. Large parts of the world aren't really fussed about racism and think it's a bit of a weird English obsession. UEFA definitely think that, that's why they give out harsher penalties for unlicensed advertising.

And yes, of course we have a problem with racism in this country, but to compare us to Bulgaria is whataboutery on a massive scale. Indeed such is the gulf between the two nations if I were the Bulgarian FA I wouldn't even try and defend it, rather I'd go on the offensive and say that racism is part of our culture and you British should respect that. Certainly the Bulgarian manager "didn't hear" any racist chanting, so whatever went on was just normal banter for him.

Don't disagree with your POV but the light fines aren't just the preserve of UEFA.

Exhibit A. Compare Millwall racist chanting fine (10k) to that of the Huddersfield Paddy Power stunt (50k)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/49193532

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/49599541

 

[nicko31]

I think Sterling has provided more than enough evidence to suggest that he is treated differently by the tabloid press than other (white) footballers. Our tabloid press is institutionally racist, that’s a given.

Indeed, xenophobia, narrow and nationalist. They've done so much damage to our country...

 

[Bold Seagull]

Well, that's an incredibly ignorant thing to say. Met many Bulgarians? Ever been there?

[MENTION=21158]Weststander[/MENTION] was saying ALL Bulgarians, as he qualified his statement with 'like minded Bulgarians'. Not sure you need to have met any Bulgarians or been there to have stated that.

 

[Bakero]

[MENTION=21158]Weststander[/MENTION] was saying ALL Bulgarians, as he qualified his statement with 'like minded Bulgarians'. Not sure you need to have met any Bulgarians or been there to have stated that.

I think I misread [MENTION=21158]Weststander[/MENTION] 's comment. Apologies. Looking again, I think he meant that British racist thugs wouldnt be upset by the actions of Bulgarian racists.

 

[zefarelly]

Don't disagree with your POV but the light fines aren't just the preserve of UEFA.

Exhibit A. Compare Millwall racist chanting fine (10k) to that of the Huddersfield Paddy Power stunt (50k)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/49193532

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/49599541

Whilst I have no time or respect for the FA or UEFA . . . . . A club gets fined because of what is effectively paying punters shouting inappropriately . Thats not a simple fix. But it is fixable. Then a club gets fined for attempting to make financial gain by flouting rules. Thats fault on both sides and the FA just cashing in. both very diffferent things though. I would say the club is more at fault for the advertising issue, it was clearly a deliberate action.

 

[blue-shifted]

A few thoughts on this now I've had a chance to think it through

England players = I wouldn't blame them for walking off and I wouldn't blame them for not walking off

Ref and officials = Surely they heard the racist chants. Why is it up to the players to report this? I get the ref has a lot on his plate but so do the players. There are 4 officials. Why has a ref never proactively reported racism and initiated the protocols

Bulgaria manager = His obliviousness is a symptom of the problem. He and the Bulgaria football hierarchy need to be cleared out straight away.

UEFA = Sat on their hands for decades. Now need to very quickly make an example of Bulgaria. My preference would be a suspended explusion from the following tournament (not this one which they're mostly out of anyway). The suspension should be activated on the next audible racist chant coming from terraces. No need to wait for it to happen three times

The current protocols = If you were at work and were told that the first 2 instances of racism against you were effectively ok, you'd probably think it wasn't being taken seriously enough. They should be scrapped and the match should always finish. However, the after match punishment should be severe enough to educate and deter. No more pretending it's not happening.

The Bulgarian neo Nazi bunch = We have problems. Most weren't even trying to hide their faces whilst doing Nazi salutes. If this doesn't indicate far right on the march I don't know what does. Interesting to me that they all left after the second stoppage. I've heard a lot that they were thrown out. Rubbish. There were barely any stewards there. Throwing out 80 odd fascists who don't want to leave would take a lot of man power and involves scuffles etc which weren't there. There's another explanation. They premeditated provoking the first 2 steps of the protocol, but not the 3rd. My guess was to make a point but not draw hostility from their home audience. Their purpose? recruitment.

 

[Hastings gull]

If you can't see at who's door tonight display of racism lies at, I seriously think you have a racist problem yourself.
90% of tonight s bigotry was down to Sofias Hitler youth, and 10% down to the football's federations wilfully ignoring the problem, or punishing it with derisory sanctions. It has encouraged the far right into believing it's acceptable.

Last week I was sceptical as to whether any action would be taken, because we have seen footballing authorities time and time again hope to get away with relatively insignificant punishments so as basically being seen to doing something without, one suspects, really wanting to get to grips with the problem. if only those pesky black footballers would just put tp up with it for 90 minutes, and then we can all breath a sigh of relief. But the ref DID take action, and so I was partially incorrect in my prediction, and am happy to have been proved wrong. I say partially, because by all accounts it continued in the second half, but if I read the situation correctly the abuse was judged to be minor by comparison with the first half. I wonder if our players thought that the game should go on, on balance, or, being somewhat cynical, just a little bit of monkey chants etc would have to be tolerated so as to avoid the huge fuss and consequent furore that would have ensued had the game been abandoned. I am not sure.