[Brighton] Brighton & Hove Parking Permits for second household Car Going up by £100pa in

[Guinness Boy]

What an assumption. Couples can easily have two different jobs, in two different places, neither easily reachable via public transport.

If your assumption is that everyone in a two income household is thriving and has plenty disposable income, let me assure you it’s an incorrect assumption.

It’s an interesting social experiment that’s taking place in Brighton. Whether intentionally or not (it looks intentional) the council are trying to ensure that if you live in Brighton, you also work in Brighton.

The wealthy can easily afford a few extra quid on parking permits, those on low wages often can’t, and along with slowly creeping petrol prices things like this could make the difference between a low wage job outside the town being financially viable or not. Fine if there are equivalent roles being created within the city boundaries that are accessible via public transport, not ok if just increasing the competition for existing vacancies.


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I didn't say "thriving" or "plenty of income". I said "not poor". If you are a couple and both of you have a job at the moment you are *not* so poor you cannot afford an extra two quid a week.

Starving children in Africa are poor. People who have lost income in the pandemic that is not being replaced by furlough or income replacement are getting poorer. The unemployed are relatively poor. Not being able to have an Indian takeaway every night isn't poor.

 

[Eeyore]

Problem I've got is that this is a tax on the poor.

If £100pa is enough to push you to sell one of your cars, then you're probably not very well off.

Equally if you are lucky enough to have a driveway and/or garage you won't be affected by this.

The people who will be affected by this the most are those who need to drive to get to work and are unable to car share.

The way to do this would be a national car tax on 2nd cars, not just for parking, with exemptions for necessity, eg. no viable public transport to area of work.

I do slightly wince when I see a family with two cars regarded as poor. I guess it's a first world thing.

 

[Chicken Run]

I do wonder how many people actually need a car for work. Obviously some do, but I’m convinced many who claim so, could find alternatives if they had to.

Unfortunately it’s called bus snobbery, many people just don’t like getting on a bus!

 

[rippleman]

Problem I've got is that this is a tax on the poor.

If £100pa is enough to push you to sell one of your cars, then you're probably not very well off.

Equally if you are lucky enough to have a driveway and/or garage you won't be affected by this.

The people who will be affected by this the most are those who need to drive to get to work and are unable to car share.

The way to do this would be a national car tax on 2nd cars, not just for parking, with exemptions for necessity, eg. no viable public transport to area of work.

If you can afford to buy and operate 2-3 vehicles you are not poor though are you? If an extra £100 a year means you have to dispose of one additional car then you didn't need it in the first place. I have never encountered a poor person with 2-3 cars.

Poverty is defined by the UN, WHO etc as "not being able to afford the basic needs of life - food, shelter, clothing". No mention of second or third vehicles.

 

[usernamed]

I didn't say "thriving" or "plenty of income". I said "not poor". If you are a couple and both of you have a job at the moment you are *not* so poor you cannot afford an extra two quid a week.

Starving children in Africa are poor. People who have lost income in the pandemic that is not being replaced by furlough or income replacement are getting poorer. The unemployed are relatively poor. Not being able to have an Indian takeaway every night isn't poor.

But your underlying assumption is that it’s an extra £2 per week that this imaginary couple can afford without impact. I’m sure the £2 a week might be found out of the food budget, it might be the pet insurance that goes, or a dental plan they’ve not needed recently.

I’m not arguing that if needed it can’t or won’t be found, I’m arguing that it’s another dip into an extremely finite pot for those whose combined incomes don’t amount to a lot. It’s regressive, and leads directly to less money going into the wider economy.


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[Guinness Boy]

But your underlying assumption is that it’s an extra £2 per week that this imaginary couple can afford without impact. I’m sure the £2 a week might be found out of the food budget, it might be the pet insurance that goes, or a dental plan they’ve not needed recently.

I’m not arguing that if needed it can’t or won’t be found, I’m arguing that it’s another dip into an extremely finite pot for those whose combined incomes don’t amount to a lot. It’s regressive, and leads directly to less money going into the wider economy.


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On two salaries, especially without kids, you're talking nonsense.

 

[usernamed]

On two salaries, especially without kids, you're talking nonsense.

No, I’m not. I’m glad you’re so far removed from such a situation that you find it inconceivable, nonetheless not everybody’s so fortunate.


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[Uter]

But your underlying assumption is that it’s an extra £2 per week that this imaginary couple can afford without impact. I’m sure the £2 a week might be found out of the food budget, it might be the pet insurance that goes, or a dental plan they’ve not needed recently.

I’m not arguing that if needed it can’t or won’t be found, I’m arguing that it’s another dip into an extremely finite pot for those whose combined incomes don’t amount to a lot. It’s regressive, and leads directly to less money going into the wider economy.


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Maybe low income families who are in receipt of council tax reduction and / or universal credit should be exempt from any surcharge on additional permits?

 

[usernamed]

Maybe low income families who are in receipt of council tax reduction and / or universal credit should be exempt from any surcharge on additional permits?

Where income is low, and there is a health or work need for a second car in a household, I’d agree. Further decreasing the disposable income of those with least to start with (when you’re trying to kickstart an economy) seems counterproductive.


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[Stat Brother]

Some of the points raised about car ownership on this thread as 'facts', do not hold up to scrutiny, when compared to the actual facts.



The average car trip made in England in 2019 was just 8.4 miles, reveals newly-published data from the Department for Transport.

The DfT data is from 2019 and was collated before the Covid-19 pandemic in the latest National Travel Survey.

The figures show that there has been a 13% reduction in the number of trips undertaken by cars since 2002.

Cars still made up the majority of trips at 61% and over three quarters of all distance covered.

The average number of business trips per person was 28, while their average business mileage was 555 miles and average journey time was 42 minutes.

Almost three-quarters (72%) of business trips were made by car or van in 2019.

Walking was the second most popular method of travel, accounting for over a quarter of trips.

Buses took 5%, while trains and cycling took 2% each.

The 2019 data shows that walking trips saw a slight fall from 2018 to 2019 to 250 trips per year, however this is an increase compared to the lowest level of walking recently recording in 2014.

In the last five years, people in England made 14% more walking trips and spent 12% long walking, per year.

The National Travel Survey is a household survey of personal travel by residents of England travelling within Great Britain, from data collected via interviews and a seven-day travel diary, which enables analysis of patterns and trends.

People made 953 trips on average in 2019, or 18 trips a week.

This was a 3% decrease on the level in 2018. People travelled an average of 6,500 miles in 2019, unchanged from 2018.

However, the trip rate in 2019 was 11% lower than the 2002 figure of 1,074; the average of 6,500 miles travelled in 2019 was 10% lower than the 7,193 recorded in 2002.

On average, people spent over an hour a day travelling in 2019, including 35 minutes by car (as a driver or passenger), 11 minutes walking, 13 minutes on public transport and two minutes on other private transport modes.

Leisure and shopping
The most common trip purpose in 2019 was for leisure (26%), followed by shopping trips (19%) and then commuting (15%).

These proportions are broadling unchanged since 2002, but the total amount of trips and total distance travelled has decreased since 2002 and 2018.

As part of its analysis, the DfT said understanding the trends is difficult.

It said: “The averages presented mask different trends for different types of people, modes and types of trip.

“Some of the many factors might include changing demographic patterns, changing patterns of trips and the impact of new technologies influencing the demand for travel, for example, the increase in online social networking, the capability for home working and online shopping.”

 

[dsr-burnley]

I do wonder how many people actually need a car for work. Obviously some do, but I’m convinced many who claim so, could find alternatives if they had to.

It's not just work, though. It's a day at the races. It's taking my mother for a ride out. It's ferrying passengers to church. It's shopping. It's holidays. It's carrying things. Like with the pandemic, it's perfectly poissible to do without those things; it would be possible to go back to my great-grandfather's day when they worked 6 days a week and there was no sport or entertainment and two days' holiday per year (Christmas Day and Boxing Day). But to what extent should people with less money be forced to do without those things by the imposition of extra taxes?

PS - no axe to grind from me on this issue. Permits where I live are £25 per year but only in certain areas, and my area isn't one.

 

[Uter]

Unfortunately it’s called bus snobbery, many people just don’t like getting on a bus!

I think this is definitely a thing. But I also think for a lot of journeys the choice of transport mode is made out of habit. Some people just need a nudge to consider alternatives.