[Politics] Brexit

[Peter Ward]

Keep taking the tablets.

Lets talk a little about tablets and health then.

Kidney Care UK have published a document entitled: What a No Deal Brexit Will Mean For Kidney Patients. At the moment, 29,000 UK people on dialysis have the right to travel to the EU and receive life-maintaining dialysis through reciprocal healthcare agreements using the EHIC card. That will probably end.
The 29,000 on dialysis and 34,000 with transplants receive a range of specialist medications needed to maintain life and wellbeing. The same rules on packaging, safety and standards are applied across the EU preserving safety and continuity of supply, with no tariffs.
Many of the drugs are made in the EU and any delay in supply puts lives at risk. A no deal Brexit could mean that drugs could be reduced or swapped with potentially inferior drugs from elsewhere such as the United States and China where reguations are slacker.This could be unsafe e.g. in the case of drugs to prevent rejection of transplants.
At the moment there are reciprocal arrangements for sending organs that are ready for donation to and from the rest of Europe. That could cease, reducing the opportunity for kidney failure patients to get a transplant. Also, if No Deal Brexit happens the current cross-border arrangements that exist between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland will cease and this could mean that NI patients will no longer be able to access care in the Republic of Ireland. Present arrangements rely not only on the UK’s membership of the EU, but also on the open border policy that this permits between RoI and Northern Ireland.

So, yes lets hope that I and others will be able to keep taking the tablets.

 

[beorhthelm]

not worth it, carry on.

 

[pastafarian]

17 days for her to hold out till we crash out with no deal

Eh? Crash out with a No Deal Brexit?
Did you not get the memo from Watford Zero?
Even though the UK and EU are preparing for No Deal Brexit, and the EU further legislated for it last week and the PM only this week further stated that “An extension cannot take no deal off the table”
You must surely be aware a magic ball speaks to Watford zero and has told him a No Deal Brexit is impossible.

Interestingly, apart from my short ban from here it's only Leavers that have been banned form this thread for abuse,

Herr T is banned from this thread for calling someone a mong, is he a Leaver now?

Less than a month to go now until our currently scheduled leave date and it's telling I haven't heard anyone make a positive case for the need to leave for some considerable time now. Does this mean even the Leavers are now cottoning on to the fact it's starting to look like the grass isn't greener?

There is no requirement to continually lay the case for leaving all because you cant stop whining like a child. The vote has been held and the result was to leave, this is the very simple truth you cannot come to grips with simply because you have been told it must still be contested, try not to be such a lemming and have a go at thinking for yourself.
I am still looking forward to taking back control of our EU borders, having more sovereign powers returned to Westminster from Brussels and expanding our horizons globally into expanding markets above existing links with the EU.

I assume you also realise that under WTO rules every dictator under the sun can happily veto our trading schedules if there's something they don't like. So Argentina could keep rejecting ours until we give them back the Falklands, for example.

Argentina can object to our submitted schedule and object to a component within the schedule until the item raised by Argentina is resolved with Argentina. Since the sovereignty of the Falklands is not contained in our schedule of commitments you have to be pretty idiotic to believe Argentina can use that as a basis at the WTO forum for an objection to a component part of our schedule.
What do you think happens if our goods schedule is uncertified and objections are still outstanding on exit day? (And our goods schedule will still be uncertified on exit day, possibly for years)

 

[pastafarian]

maybe you can come up with something while I'm out

Talking about coming up with something.
You still havnt come up with the list of or a link to the default tariffs the WTO produces itself and imposes on other countries.
Do you still need more time?
How much longer do you want?

 

[JC Footy Genius]

Oh good. When do I get to vote for the Monarch? Or the Lord's? Or the actual Prime Minister come to that?



Whereas others would point to the increasingly chronic shortages of staff in the health and care sectors as a negative.



But we have a veto over all of this.



Evidence for higher prices, please. Also most other nations belong to "protectionist" trade organisations. Why do you think only one nation trades purely on WTO terms?



Wow, I can't wait to get back control of that 7% of laws which weren't from the UK, which was mostly massively sovereign-impacting stuff like "making sure food was safe".



Wait, haven't you just contradicted point 3? Or does everyone but us have a veto?

I assume you also realise that under WTO rules every dictator under the sun can happily veto our trading schedules if there's something they don't like. So Argentina could keep rejecting ours until we give them back the Falklands, for example.



I have a bank account. That bank will almost certainly have inflicted crushing poverty on others who have failed to pay their debts to it too. Do you have a bank account? In which case exactly the same applies to you.



The negotiations have always been in the hands of Brexit secretaries who were Brexiters. They all ran away, as have all the others. Repeatedly.

You can vote to change our government, therefore, the Prime Minister you silly sausage. How do we vote out the EU Commission or any EU President?

Here's a novel idea, how about we train enough Uk citizens and pay them a decent wage so we don't have to rely on stripping numerous countries across the globe for their medical staff.

We had a Veto over the creation of the Eurozone and all the problems it has caused?

Artificially inflated food prices - Ever heard of the common agricultural policy? https://www.economicshelp.org/europe/disadvantages-cap/

Only 7%? Somewhere between 15 and 50% depending on the criteria https://researchbriefings.parliament.uk/ResearchBriefing/Summary/RP10-62 We also lose the most votes in the council of ministers ... on such minor matters as budget and Foreign/security policy.

https://ukandeu.ac.uk/explainers/does-the-uk-win-or-lose-in-the-council-of-ministers/

No contradiction see my answer to point three,

If a 'bank' lent money to a person who didn't meet the loan criteria, had a woeful history of defaults and let other people break its rules would you be happy if that bank's actions then lead to that person becoming destitute or killing themselves?

Rubbish ... the only person having the ultimate say on the negotiations has been the PM, Olly Robbins has more influence than all the hapless Brexit secretaries combined. They resigned because the PM diverged from her stated negotiating red lines and the Tory party manifesto ... rightly so.

 

[Stat Brother]

[tweet]1100765793074274304[/tweet]

 

[WATFORD zero]

Talking about coming up with something.
You still havnt come up with the list of or a link to the default tariffs the WTO produces itself and imposes on other countries.
Do you still need more time?
How much longer do you want?

It's good that you have finally taken an interest in the way the WTO operates, even if it is nearly 3 years too late !

(And Meg always told me you were a shy 'no dealer' so I am glad that's been cleared up)



I'll do this slowly, so you can understand.

These rates are set by the UK 'as confirmed by Gove'

TRUE BUT IRRELEVANT AS OUR SCHEDULES WILL NOT BE PASSED IN 38 DAYS.

We can choose different rates across different product lines.

TRUE BUT IRRELEVANT AS OUR SCHEDULES WILL NOT BE PASSED IN 38 DAYS.

Tariff rate commitments, (both ceiling rate and applied rate) are decided by the UK, together with quotas (which will help explain to you why there are the two rates). This is a method of controlling volumes of imports.

TRUE BUT IRRELEVANT AS OUR SCHEDULES WILL NOT BE PASSED IN 38 DAYS.

I'll try one last time.

Because we don't have any agreed schedules, and will not have in 38 days we will use the WTO 'default tariffs'. There is only one default tariff, because there are no quotas and, therefor, no method of controlling volumes. The UK still has some control. By product, we can decide to charge the default tariff or not charge the default tariff. And whatever we decide applies to all WTO members under the Most-favoured-nation (MFN) rules.


You can keep wittering on with whataboutisms for ever more, but these are the simple facts.

*edit*
The only thing that has changed - 31 days

Argentina can object to our submitted schedule and object to a component within the schedule until the item raised by Argentina is resolved with Argentina. Since the sovereignty of the Falklands is not contained in our schedule of commitments you have to be pretty idiotic to believe Argentina can use that as a basis at the WTO forum for an objection to a component part of our schedule.
What do you think happens if our goods schedule is uncertified and objections are still outstanding on exit day? (And our goods schedule will still be uncertified on exit day, possibly for years)

And I see you still think any country in the WTO can set any tariffs and quotas it likes and start charging them regardless, possibly for years ? Makes the WTO somewhat pointless doesn't it

 

[TWOCHOICEStom]

Higher skilled immigration replacing mass low skilled EU immigration ... win-win for the UK.

I've seen this viewpoint a few times and always thought it to be quite strange. I don't believe that Brits are being kept out of work by Romanian cleaners or Polish nursing home workers or Latvian strawberry pickers. We really do need those people.

If anything, I would understand if people objected to the more skilled workers coming over. There's a far stronger argument for those people negatively effecting our economy and the prospects of young people than the former.... IMO like...

 

[Baldseagull]

You can vote to change our government, therefore, the Prime Minister you silly sausage. How do we vote out the EU Commission or any EU President?

Here's a novel idea, how about we train enough Uk citizens and pay them a decent wage so we don't have to rely on stripping numerous countries across the globe for their medical staff.

We had a Veto over the creation of the Eurozone and all the problems it has caused?

Artificially inflated food prices - Ever heard of the common agricultural policy? https://www.economicshelp.org/europe/disadvantages-cap/

Only 7%? Somewhere between 15 and 50% depending on the criteria https://researchbriefings.parliament.uk/ResearchBriefing/Summary/RP10-62 We also lose the most votes in the council of ministers ... on such minor matters as budget and Foreign/security policy.

https://ukandeu.ac.uk/explainers/does-the-uk-win-or-lose-in-the-council-of-ministers/

No contradiction see my answer to point three,

If a 'bank' lent money to a person who didn't meet the loan criteria, had a woeful history of defaults and let other people break its rules would you be happy if that bank's actions then lead to that person becoming destitute or killing themselves?

Rubbish ... the only person having the ultimate say on the negotiations has been the PM, Olly Robbins has more influence than all the hapless Brexit secretaries combined. They resigned because the PM diverged from her stated negotiating red lines and the Tory party manifesto ... rightly so.

How do we vote out Olly Robbins then?

 

[Baldseagull]

There is no requirement to continually lay the case for leaving all because you cant stop whining like a child. The vote has been held and the result was to leave, this is the very simple truth you cannot come to grips with simply because you have been told it must still be contested, try not to be such a lemming and have a go at thinking for yourself.
I am still looking forward to taking back control of our EU borders, having more sovereign powers returned to Westminster from Brussels and expanding our horizons globally into expanding markets above existing links with the EU.

Lemming is an interesting choice of word for someone keen to go over the cliff edge himself. The simple truth is the result was Leave, the more complicated truth is that the country has changed it's mind and that the Russians corrupted the referendum. As we leave the EU, it is working on trade deals globally, there is zero chance that we will ever have as many and as good deals as the EU will. Do you think the UK will ever be able to insert a clause into a trade deal which prevents anyone else getting a better one?

 

[Rodney Thomas]

How do we vote out Olly Robbins then?

Or any other civil servant, or parliamentary aids, or the House of Lords, or the Queen.

Let’s face it, no democracy is perfect. It’s up to the people to constantly demand change, accountability and reform. I’ll carry on doing that from inside Europe.

 

[Mellotron]

Slightly odd that no ones mentioned Labours move last night to back May’s deal if it is put to a People’s vote first?

Expected to be supported by a number of Conservative MPs as well.

 

[ManOfSussex]

How do we vote out Olly Robbins then?

Or Nick Timothy and Fiona Hill. So easy to follow suit and attack Olly Robbins because he's a civil servant/a remoaner/an expert etc as the right wing press do, but the problem was caused by Nick Timothy and Fiona Hill dreaming up May's fantasy Little England red lines in the first place and boxing her and the whole process into a corner before it had even started.

Still, they were also the geniuses who dreamt up 'strong and stable' so they did have some value, albeit comedy.

 

[Stat Brother]

Slightly odd that no ones mentioned Labours move last night to back May’s deal if it is put to a People’s vote first?

Expected to be supported by a number of Conservative MPs as well.

It's the job of the opposition to support the incumbent lame duck government, isn't it, or have I misinterpreted this current cycle of government?

 

[Deleted member 22389]

[tweet]1101379018543325185[/tweet]

[tweet]1101406514525409286[/tweet]

 

[Gwylan]

Slightly odd that no ones mentioned Labours move last night to back May’s deal if it is put to a People’s vote first?

Expected to be supported by a number of Conservative MPs as well.

The Kyle-Wilson amendment was mentioned several pages back.

It won't get through so it's pretty irrelevant.

And as Labour will back May's Leave agreement if, and only if, the KW amendment passes, we're back as we were.

 

[Stat Brother]

[tweet]1101406514525409286[/tweet]

Alternatively - Siemens are building one new site to house their current 2 existing manufacturing centres.
Which obviously is great, but by the same token it's not as if Siemens are saying 'let's move to a Brexitted UK'.

The Siemens move will generate £40 million of investment over the next three years into the local area. A new state-of-the-art factory and offices will be built over the 27 acre site, including a new access road, parking and facilities. The new factory and offices will be built using environmentally-friendly lighting and sustainable building technologies, to reduce emissions and save energy. The company plans to relocate from its current sites at Freeman Road and Firth Road over the next three years. Investment will also be made into the current Ruston Works site, in Lincoln, where 600 Siemens employees from the service business will continue to be employed



Oh and that came from...



...The Siemens press release

https://www.siemens.co.uk/en/news_press/index/news_archive/february_5_2008.htm

 

[Deleted member 22389]

Alternatively - Siemens are building one new site to house their current 2 existing manufacturing centres.
Which obviously is great, but by the same token it's not as if Siemens are saying 'let's move to a Brexitted UK'.

The Siemens move will generate £40 million of investment over the next three years into the local area. A new state-of-the-art factory and offices will be built over the 27 acre site, including a new access road, parking and facilities. The new factory and offices will be built using environmentally-friendly lighting and sustainable building technologies, to reduce emissions and save energy. The company plans to relocate from its current sites at Freeman Road and Firth Road over the next three years. Investment will also be made into the current Ruston Works site, in Lincoln, where 600 Siemens employees from the service business will continue to be employed



Oh and that came from...



...The Siemens press release

https://www.siemens.co.uk/en/news_press/index/news_archive/february_5_2008.htm

I'm posting here frequently with new manufacturing news every week. It doesn't tell me things are going down the pan.

 

[Baldseagull]

Slightly odd that no ones mentioned Labours move last night to back May’s deal if it is put to a People’s vote first?

Expected to be supported by a number of Conservative MPs as well.

I am not sure it will pass, it's a chicken and egg thing, if Mays deal is approved, there would be support for putting it to a referendum, but the amendment would have to come before the vote on Mays deal and some will vote against it because it makes Mays deal more likely to pass.

 

[Bold Seagull]

Slightly odd that no ones mentioned Labours move last night to back May’s deal if it is put to a People’s vote first?

Expected to be supported by a number of Conservative MPs as well.

It is, but also a real risk Labour MPs with high numbers of leave voters won't back it.

Watched QT last night, and I thought one leave voter made a very good point that he voted Leave, but why should May's deal be the only option between leaving and not in a 2nd referendum? I had some sympathy for that position that a 2nd referendum with a choice between May's Deal and Remain, actually prevents leaving only down to the shambolic negotiations / red lines / whatever you want to call it of the government. I voted Remain, but I can see this being so divisive because many Leave voters are on the left of politics (our very own [MENTION=12825]cunning fergus[/MENTION] for one), and their voice is effectively null and void by a 2nd referendum that only gives voters the choice between a Conservative negotiated deal or remaining.

That said, democratically the Conservatives were elected post referendum to deliver Brexit, and so the argument is this is the deal that the electorate voted for because the electorate put the Tories in power to deliver it – therefore this is what Brexit looks like, no ifs or buts, this is what we have, do you want to still leave with all the facts at hand now or stay?

My other issue with the Kyle/Wilson amendment, is that it doesn't give Parliament the chance to actually vote for the main deal. It takes away the scenario where there are enough votes to get the deal over the line without another referendum or election, however unlikely that may be, but we are then staring down the barrel of No Deal.

What a mess.