[Politics] Brexit

[Trufflehound]

Fair enough, although I suspect it could have opened up a can of worms had eligibility criteria changed, with cries of the establishment trying to fix the referendum.

Scrapping the 15-year eligibility cut-off (for GEs, but it could easily have been applied to the referendum) was in the Conservative manifesto for the 2015 election and in the following Queen's Speech, so it was a broken campaign promise rather than a can of worms...

 

[Brian Fantana]

Given the fact that you've got a whole swathe of different opinions within the Brexit camp, ranging from people who want nothing to do with the EU through to those who basically want what we have now but without paying for it, surely we're going to end up with the vast majority of people unhappy with the outcome?

If we remain in the EU, all of the Leave voters are enraged.

If we leave the EU with no deal, all of the Remain voters and the 'soft Brexit' supporters are enraged.

If we leave the EU with very close ties in place, the Remain voters are enraged because that is basically what we had before and the 'hard Brexit' supporters are enraged because that's not what they voted for.

In short, the whole thing is chaos with basically no solution. Bravo Cameron, you utter tosspot.

 

[Eeyore]

We are leaving. It has to be accepted.

But given that the public were given no indication of what the terms would be and were lied to by both sides. Given that so much was based on biased supposition, there should be a second referendum.

This time the public will have the facts.

This is the deal- do you want it or not ?

 

[Perkino]

I voted remain due to the fact leave was a vote of uncertainty. If there had been a vote on shall we consider leaving I would've voted leave or if a deal had been put in place that we would've understood the two options I could've weighed them up but a blind vote seemed reckless.

Without knowing what leaving would give us then we are better to stick with it. The Scots worked that out despite some very influential politicians convincing the media that they would leave

 

[oneillco]

The whole thing is a mess!

We should have been given all the facts well before the vote. It's the reason I felt I couldn't vote as the details were so vague. I believe in a strong Europe and good relations with our neighbours, but I also think the current EU setup is full of gravy trainers and too much bureaucracy.

My Dad believes their should be a second referendum (he is a staunch remainer) but when I asked him if he thought there should be a 2nd referendum had "remain" won he said "NO" - To me that is the exact opposite of democracy.

Far too much moving of the goalposts and to be honest the whole think is a shit fest and makes us look a laughing stock!

Could it be that the whole thing is a sh1t fest and Britain looks a laughing stock is because too many people avoiding doing a bit of research for themselves and therefore didn't vote?

 

[seagulls4ever]

Scrapping the 15-year eligibility cut-off (for GEs, but it could easily have been applied to the referendum) was in the Conservative manifesto for the 2015 election and in the following Queen's Speech, so it was a broken campaign promise rather than a can of worms...

Also fair enough, but your frustrations seemed to be that eligibility wasn't changed specifically for the referendum, as that's what impacts you. If eligibility was changed just for the referendum, you can see how that could be interpreted in different ways. If eligibility was changed for GEs and referendums, since the GE change was in the manifesto, and referendum eligibility generally mirrors GEs, then no one could reasonably make claims of foul play. Both the referendum and the eligibility change were in the manifesto, so I understand your frustrations.

 

[drew]

Working class people voted to leave as they have seen their wages pushed down over the past by cheap imported labour.

Nothing to do with an unnecessary program of austerity then!

 

[WATFORD zero]

Well after all the well thought out, articulate, erudite, eloquent, persuasive, coherent, lucid, and convincing arguments on NSC over the last 2 years

it looks like NSC has changed it's mind a bit

NSC Poll in weeks before referendum

Prior to Referendum 56% remain, 38% leave

Post Referendum 75% remain, 25% leave

 

[nicko31]

Well after all the well thought out, articulate, erudite, eloquent, persuasive, coherent, lucid, and convincing arguments on NSC over the last 2 years

it looks like NSC has changed it's mind a bit

NSC Poll in weeks before referendum

Prior to Referendum 56% remain, 38% leave

Post Referendum 75% remain, 25% leave

Its the soft leavers that got told a pack of lies that are now changing their mind.

Now the lies cannot be delivered and they are being told the only way is to go off a cliff, for most of the working population this is not acceptable as outcome to Brexit. The cost is the average person will be too high, the effect lasting and its will create massive inter-generational resentment

Still don't get why the Tories went it alone on Brexit, far better to let Labour share the blame too, they are not innocent. Instead they can sit back and wait for their opportunity to capitalise and make hay out of the Tory civil war

 

[Mellor 3 Ward 4]

Nothing to do with an unnecessary program of austerity then!

10 Countries joined the EU in 2004 (including Poland, Estonia, Hungary, Slovenia and Slovakia)

That's when wages for non-skilled and semi-skilled workers in real terms started falling (long before austerity)

 

[The Clamp]

His face is priceless. To try and shift his rant onto live animal exports (which he doesn't give a **** about) only to be finally put in his place is well worth a watch!

Exposed for the conman he is. God, leave voters really did have blind faith didn't they! Blind.

 

[The Clamp]

I do know the difference between venal and venial,and if you think the French are sin-free in that trade deal then you are silly.I suggest that if you wish not to become a pathetic grammar nazi you shut up.

You don't know if you're scratching your watch or winding your arse, mate.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Who is pulling the strings? Legatum, IEA. Cash for questions/access. So much corruption.
VoteLeave broke the law.

https://twitter.com/mikegalsworthy/status/1024202972685914112

[tweet]1024202972685914112[/tweet]

 

[Simster]

10 Countries joined the EU in 2004 (including Poland, Estonia, Hungary, Slovenia and Slovakia)

That's when wages for non-skilled and semi-skilled workers in real terms started falling (long before austerity)

Indeed. In my view, the failure of an arrogant EU and a feeble Call Me Dave to address and negotiate this issue are directly responsible for Brexit. Without this issue, I don't think Brexit would have been voted for and for this reason alone, the Brexit negotiators should have targetted a soft Brexit where the UK was closely aligned to the EU where possible but with a red line over border control.

 

[WATFORD zero]

Prior to Referendum 56% remain, 38% leave

Post Referendum 75% remain, 21% leave

Corrected, I asked Pretty pink fairy to do the adding up for me

 

[Garry Nelson's teacher]

Corrected, I asked Pretty pink fairy to do the adding up for me

Oooh low blow.

 

[Eeyore]

Ignorance of the electorate is true, but a dangerous precedent if we are to accept this fact and want to take action on it. It is essentially saying that democracy cannot work because the general populace is not educated enough to vote on political matters.

Whereby it may be true... it's not a road we want to walk down.

"Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others".

Whether the Brexit vote was through ignorance or otherwise, we need to accept it if we are to accept democracy. If you don't want to accept democracy on this occasion, then please consider what the alternative should be.

We democratically voted to leave the EU. We need to accept it, whether we agree with it or not.

Yes.

But the full deal, the total bare facts, but be placed in front of the public before it finally happens. Then the public can say they accept it or no.

It's the least that is owed after this dog's dinner of a process.

 

[nicko31]

Who is pulling the strings? Legatum, IEA. Cash for questions/access. So much corruption.
VoteLeave broke the law.

https://twitter.com/mikegalsworthy/status/1024202972685914112

[tweet]1024202972685914112[/tweet]

Every day the waters get murkier and murkier.....

 

[pb21]

Ignorance of the electorate is true, but a dangerous precedent if we are to accept this fact and want to take action on it. It is essentially saying that democracy cannot work because the general populace is not educated enough to vote on political matters.

Whereby it may be true... it's not a road we want to walk down.

"Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others".

Whether the Brexit vote was through ignorance or otherwise, we need to accept it if we are to accept democracy. If you don't want to accept democracy on this occasion, then please consider what the alternative should be.

We democratically voted to leave the EU. We need to accept it, whether we agree with it or not.

We have accepted it, we are in the process of leaving.

However what if, during the process, people don’t want to accept it any more, should the government then plough on willy-nilly? That doesn’t sound very democratic to me, more dictatorial?

 

[Triggaaar]

So you want to restrict peoples freedom so that you will be better off as you happen to have been born in the "right" place. Screw those other people, right? As long as we are ok, let them suffer.

Firstly, that's not what I said. You say 'screw those other people' as if opening all borders would help them, but I've been explaining that it wouldn't, it would just lead to the anarchy across the world.

As for being born in the right place, the UK wasn't the right place a thousand years ago, but the people made it the right place for the benefit of their descendants. I'd like the more developed countries to help other countries also see the progress we've benefited from. Simply removing all borders would not work. Has any party ever been daft enough to make such an idea their policy?