[Politics] Brexit

[studio150]

Thank goodness The Tories are all singing from the same hymn sheet though. #strongandstable

[tweet]1018870493301092357[/tweet]

FFS, I suppose the country should be thankful that the Chequers White Paper at least lasted a week before being torn up.

Still Brexit means Brexit, and this Government will get the best deal for Britain, and repeat, and repeat.......

 

[Mo Gosfield]

......and, to quote another chunk of that article from the fiercely pro-EU Grauniad:

"Michael Oakeshott, a philosopher, said that to be conservative “is to prefer the familiar to the unknown, to prefer the tried to the untried, fact to mystery, the actual to the possible, the limited to the unbounded.........."

Very good, Michael Oakeshott - but that is the party that decided to dump nearly a millennium of history and bundle us into the EEC back in 1973. A grateful EEC rewarded the party leader with a nice ocean-going racing yacht too....................................

Ah... the Common Market....whatever happened to that?

 

[GT49er]

Ah... the Common Market....whatever happened to that?

It got ideas above its station?

 

[Gwylan]

......and, to quote another chunk of that article from the fiercely pro-EU Grauniad:

It's from The Economist, not the Guardian (although it's still pro EU).

Very good, Michael Oakeshott - but that is the party that decided to dump nearly a millennium of history and bundle us into the EEC back in 1973.

To quote further from the article. "the Tories embrace change in order to manage it." The move to join the EEC was absolutely at one with conservative (and Conservative) policies - which is why The Economist tends to be pro-EU (and why so many old Labour types were virulently opposed).

The move to the EU was scarcely radical - it had been in operation for 15 years when we joined. So we weren't joining a blue-sky venture that Oakeshott is talking about.

 

[Lincoln Imp]

So - three EU countries finished ahead of us. So that means we finished ahead of the other twenty four. I think you're in the wrong playground.

Wasn't it meant to be a light-hearted comment? And I always thought that Leavers were renowned for their senses of humour.

 

[lawros left foot]

So - three EU countries finished ahead of us. So that means we finished ahead of the other twenty four. I think you're in the wrong playground.

But how many non EU countries did the 27 finish ahea- - -




No, it's getting silly now.

 

[Blue3]

So - three EU countries finished ahead of us. So that means we finished ahead of the other twenty four. I think you're in the wrong playground.

Come on see he funny side

 

[GT49er]

It's from The Economist, not the Guardian (although it's still pro EU).

When it was headed "https://www.theguardian.com/politics...-politics-live" one can probably understand why people may have thought it came from The Grauniad.

It was at one with Heath's policies, which were not shared by all his party. Didn't see Oakeshott saying anything about Sky Blue - it was dumping 900 years of history and leaping into the unknown for Britain, and subsequently sold to the British public with a referendum campaign far dirtier than the one we've just experienced.

 

[Ernest]

Give it till the end of the week before there is another White Paper

 

[Gwylan]

It was at one with Heath's policies, which were not shared by all his party.

My guess is that you're too young to remember the 70s but this is completely untrue. The Conservatives were overwhelmingly in favour of joining the EEC - the one major dissenter, Enoch Powell, ended up leaving the party as he couldn't tolerate its pro-European views. Joining the EEC had been Conservative policy for years, Macmillan tried to join in the early 60s. There may have been the odd anti-European among its MPs but they were very few ... and none of them were front-benchers.

It was the Labour Party that was split with several leading politicians, including future cabinet ministers Benn, Foot, Shore, Hart, Castle and Varley opposed joining. Wilson called a referendum a couple of years later for the same reason that Cameron did - an attempt to appease dissent in his party. The Labour Party eventually fought an election in 1983 on withdrawal from the EEC - the Tories were overwhelmingly in support of Europe.

Didn't see Oakeshott saying anything about Sky Blue - it was dumping 900 years of history and leaping into the unknown for Britain, and subsequently sold to the British public with a referendum campaign far dirtier than the one we've just experienced.

Not sure where you get the 900 years from - the EEC was founded in 1957, so it was 16 years. And the UK had had a long history of European co-operation, going back to the British/Dutch/Prussian alliance that did for Napoleon - so the EEC was scarcely a leap into the unknown.

 

[AK74]

On the point about Macmillan wanting to join in the 1960s, de Gaulle used his veto in 1963 to prevent this from happening as he felt that Britain wasn't truly committed to the European project (and was acting on behalf of the US and Kennedy).

 

[Garry Nelson's teacher]

Its good to see remainers accept they are wrong, doesnt happen often on here

On ending freedom of movement yes it delivers
On stopping the primacy of the ECJ yes it delivers
On leaving the customs union and allowing us to be free to make our own trade deals yes it delivers
On quitting being members of the single market yes it delivers
On a new free trade agreement to replace the single market yes it delivers(on its framework)
Not sucked in to a Norway model yes it delivers

The sticking point is the common rule book on cross border goods, i would want to see more evidence on what the punishments are if parliament after regaining these powers refuses further legislation.
Seems to me this sticking point of cross border goods can be resolved on the uk front if May stuck to the premise
of the Mansion House speech that regulations post brexit could have the same results as EU law but not have to be identical outcomes.i,e, mutual recognition.
Mutual recognition on goods seems to be out of favour, perhaps parliamentary votes as favoured by Mogg and co will push this back this week as further legislation of leaving goes through parliament this week

Thank you. But you've missed a major sticking point: the border with Ireland?

 

[Baldseagull]

You constantly try to make out you know so much about this, yet lots of commentators are saying that WTO is not the end of the world as you say. Also, you go on about the EU trade deals. These will be in GOODS. That don’t help us a load now does is Sherlock as we are predeominantly a SERVICES based economy.

Do try to keep up at the back OK . Maybe your 50 years plus of thinking you’re not so smart was the best thing you’ve done in your life

Most leavers tend not to bring that up, the fact that there is absolutely no WTO arrangements that would cover us in any way if we leave without a deal, we need an agreement with the EU.

 

[Baldseagull]

80% of the withdrawal agreement agreed so hardly paralysed,shit load of bills non brexit related going on in the parliamentary process
https://services.parliament.uk/bills/

did you seriously think it wasnt possible to look up and see you were talking bollocks?

The 80% agreed is a bit of a red herring, all the easy stuff is agreed, the last 20% is where all the red lines are.

 

[TomandJerry]

Seven votes to come tonight....

 

[Baldseagull]

Thank you for that ridiculous and inappropriate comparison. I repeat the words of Andrew O'Hagan from 2017 to which I wholeheartedly agree.....
" Dacre's worst effect has been to let it seem mired in the things it hates, as if society's worst excesses were mostly an outgrowth of its own paranoid imagination. Under its editor, the paper is a bubbling quagmire of prejudice passing as news, of opinion dressed as fact and contempt, posing as contempt, for that part of the world's population that doesn't live in Cheam."

You may not like some of the unpalatable truths I mentioned but they are all reasons why the ' ill-informed ' may have chosen to vote Leave. The only speculation I wrote is that the EU is ultimately doomed, which is based on reading political and economic history and reading and listening to historians and scholars and which I may not find out in my lifetime.

Well all Empires end at some point.

 

[GT49er]

My guess is that you're too young to remember the 70s......................

Start a post with bollocks - and then just get further and further from reality. Well, you are a remainer, and for a remainer a guess is as good as a fact. Not only was I there in the 70s, I even voted in the referendum. I voted no, in spite of the dirt that was thrown at anyone who voted no by the Yes lobby. Sorry if real facts turn your argument to bollox.

Oh, and 900 years as an independent sovereign state - since 1066 in fact; that's history. Various alliances and agreements didn't change that. Shame they don't teach history properly these days, eh?

 

[ManOfSussex]

Being reported that the Government are apparently to table a motion tomorrow to bring the recess forward to Thursday rather than next Tuesday.

 

[TomandJerry]

Government wins first customs bill vote by majority of 27

The government has won the first vote. Labour’s call for the UK to stay in a customs union with the EU has been defeated by 316 votes to 289 - a majority of 27.

 

[GT49er]

Well all Empires end at some point.

Wow! Put the flags out! Remainer accepts reality!

Good job we'll be out when it goes tits up.