[Politics] Brexit

[pastafarian]

Top post - right up to the 4th. word from the end. 17.3m of us are not idiots (in fact, technically there aren't as many as 17.4m idiots in the whole of the UK anyway). Many of us who voted leave are very intelligent, and I'm sure that there are some who voted remain who are as thick as sh1t (and the odd one or two of them have contributed to this thread!). Why spoil a good post with a stupid and derogatory piece of stereotyping?

I find it strange that previously according to remoaners (not the same as remainers) the British public were too stupid to vote in a referendum which is apparently according to them a stupid medium for voting. yet the same people want another referendum, a process they hate, and the British public are now intelligent enough to vote if they vote remain because its now called a people vote

 

[pastafarian]

Okay, it's obviously something you enjoy so carry on. Far be it from me to take away one of your few joys in life.

just for heads up on your part it wasnt just him laughing
loads of people thought you were a cock for pretending to be two different profiles with lies

 

[Gwylan]

I find it strange that previously according to remoaners (not the same as remainers) the British public were too stupid to vote in a referendum which is apparently according to them a stupid medium for voting. yet the same people want another referendum, a process they hate, and the British public are now intelligent enough to vote if they vote remain because its now called a people vote

I think you're missing the point. It's not so much a referendum that's a stupid medium but the way that the last EU referendum was run. The binary choice that it offered created more problems than it solved (to be fair, it's not only remainers who feel this way, I remember pointing out on this very site that the choice was too simplistic and would create nothing but trouble).

Personally, I dislike all referendums - I think MPs should be left to govern - but given a choice, I'll take it. But the last referendum was almost an object lesson in how not to run one.

EDIT: Just to clarify: I don't mean that a second referendum would put things right - I think it's a terrible idea - but the first one should have been better thought out.

 

[TomandJerry]

Scott Mann resigns at Tory PPS over May's Brexit plan

 

[Blue3]

I find it strange that previously according to remoaners (not the same as remainers) the British public were too stupid to vote in a referendum which is apparently according to them a stupid medium for voting. yet the same people want another referendum, a process they hate, and the British public are now intelligent enough to vote if they vote remain because its now called a people vote

Probably true to say that the public are now far better informed that they were at the time of the referendum

 

[ManOfSussex]

David Davis, Steve Baker, Ben Bradley, Maria Caulfield, Boris Johnson, Chris Green, Conor Burns, Andrew Griffiths, Robert Courts and now Scott Mann all resigned.

Good to see the Chequers agreement has brought The Conservative and Unionist Party together for the good of the country.

 

[nicko31]

So your inference is that Leave voters were poorly informed, whilst Remain voters were not?
The vote was simplistic. Either in the EU or out. It was a straight yes or no. It didn't matter if it was a majority of one vote. What did the Leave voters have to be informed about? How good the EU is for us? Did they not see years and years of failed negotiations to get a better deal and EU intransigence on many matters? Did they not see the EU moving in a direction that none of us originally voted for? Did they not want sovereignty back? Did they not see, all around them, the effect on their quality of life of unrestricted and illegal immigration?. The pressure that is putting on public services, health and education.
Some would have worked out that the trading arrangements put in place by the EU are designed to suit Germany best and the UK a long way down the list. Did they not see how the economies of Southern European member states were destroyed by Brussels and the big banks. Some way to treat fellow members! Some would have considered that globalisation, a European superstate and protectionist policies within its member bloc, were not entirely what they want. Some would have considered that an ever growing beaurocratic machine was too expensive, too unaccountable and too corrupt for comfort. Some will have read political and economic history and realised that, ultimately, the EU is doomed.
But hey ho...the Remain campaign knew all this and were totally happy with staying in and the Leavers all believed that £350m was going to be spent on the NHS and everything in the garden was going to be rosy and leaving the EU would be trouble free.
Simple isn't it?

Well played Paul Dacre....

 

[Mo Gosfield]

Top post - right up to the 4th. word from the end. 17.3m of us are not idiots (in fact, technically there aren't as many as 17.4m idiots in the whole of the UK anyway). Many of us who voted leave are very intelligent, and I'm sure that there are some who voted remain who are as thick as sh1t (and the odd one or two of them have contributed to this thread!). Why spoil a good post with a stupid and derogatory piece of stereotyping?

Ah....you misinterpreted my little bit of sarcasm. We continually read on here that everyone who voted Leave is a congenital idiot and that was my little dig.

 

[CHAPPERS]

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...vers-jointly-ahead-of-key-votes-politics-live

There are lots of reasons why the party of government has become the party of anarchy ... But one thing above all others explains the current mess: the Conservative party, or large chunks of it, has forgotten the basic principles of conservatism. It has ceased to think like a conservative party, and it won’t recover its governing ability until it relearns that difficult art.

The first principle of conservatism is to be sceptical of pie-in-the-sky schemes. John Stuart Mill liked to mock Tories as “the stupid party”. Walter Bagehot replied that stupidity was a virtue rather than a vice — the Tories succeeded precisely because they preferred common sense to “remote ideas”, and pragmatic compromise to ideological principles. Butler summed up the Conservative approach to politics when he described politics as “the art of the possible”. Michael Oakeshott, a philosopher, said that to be conservative “is to prefer the familiar to the unknown, to prefer the tried to the untried, fact to mystery, the actual to the possible, the limited to the unbounded, the near to the distant, the sufficient to the superabundant, the convenient to the perfect, present laughter to Utopian bliss.”

The Brexit wing of the Conservative party is the party of pie in the sky. It has reversed every one of Oakeshott’s phrases. Britain has been a member of the European Union for 45 years and was the leading architect of the single market. But the Brexiteers have decided to dump half a century of history, bought at the cost of hard negotiation and compromise, in favour of airy talk of “sovereignty” and “control”. They sold Brexit to the British people without specifying what it might mean, making Utopian promises about having cake and eating it while making effortless trade deals hither and yon.

 

[Mo Gosfield]

Well played Paul Dacre....

Thank you for that ridiculous and inappropriate comparison. I repeat the words of Andrew O'Hagan from 2017 to which I wholeheartedly agree.....
" Dacre's worst effect has been to let it seem mired in the things it hates, as if society's worst excesses were mostly an outgrowth of its own paranoid imagination. Under its editor, the paper is a bubbling quagmire of prejudice passing as news, of opinion dressed as fact and contempt, posing as contempt, for that part of the world's population that doesn't live in Cheam."

You may not like some of the unpalatable truths I mentioned but they are all reasons why the ' ill-informed ' may have chosen to vote Leave. The only speculation I wrote is that the EU is ultimately doomed, which is based on reading political and economic history and reading and listening to historians and scholars and which I may not find out in my lifetime.

 

[Ernest]

so your inference is that leave voters were poorly informed, whilst remain voters were not?
The vote was simplistic. Either in the eu or out. It was a straight yes or no. It didn't matter if it was a majority of one vote. What did the leave voters have to be informed about? How good the eu is for us? Did they not see years and years of failed negotiations to get a better deal and eu intransigence on many matters? Did they not see the eu moving in a direction that none of us originally voted for? Did they not want sovereignty back? Did they not see, all around them, the effect on their quality of life of unrestricted and illegal immigration?. The pressure that is putting on public services, health and education.
Some would have worked out that the trading arrangements put in place by the eu are designed to suit germany best and the uk a long way down the list. Did they not see how the economies of southern european member states were destroyed by brussels and the big banks. Some way to treat fellow members! Some would have considered that globalisation, a european superstate and protectionist policies within its member bloc, were not entirely what they want. Some would have considered that an ever growing beaurocratic machine was too expensive, too unaccountable and too corrupt for comfort. Some will have read political and economic history and realised that, ultimately, the eu is doomed.
But hey ho...the remain campaign knew all this and were totally happy with staying in and the leavers all believed that £350m was going to be spent on the nhs and everything in the garden was going to be rosy and leaving the eu would be trouble free.
Simple isn't it?

tl dr

 

[Mo Gosfield]

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...vers-jointly-ahead-of-key-votes-politics-live

" But the Brexiteers have decided to dump half a century of history, bought at the cost of hard negotiation and compromise, in favour of airy talk of " sovereignty and " control "

....oh how convenient it is to forget our ( Cameron's and some of his predecessors ) appalling efforts at negotiating and continually returning home with less than satisfactory deals. There was a lot more compromise than successful negotiation. For a country with our strength and size of contribution, we were often paid lip-service.
The EU worked well for us up to about 25 years ago. As each year since has gone by, it is clear that we have been presented with a ' like it or lump it ' attitude...' we are pressing ahead with expansionism, protectionism and federalism '

 

[bluenitsuj]

So your inference is that Leave voters were poorly informed, whilst Remain voters were not?
The vote was simplistic. Either in the EU or out. It was a straight yes or no. It didn't matter if it was a majority of one vote. What did the Leave voters have to be informed about? How good the EU is for us? Did they not see years and years of failed negotiations to get a better deal and EU intransigence on many matters? Did they not see the EU moving in a direction that none of us originally voted for? Did they not want sovereignty back? Did they not see, all around them, the effect on their quality of life of unrestricted and illegal immigration?. The pressure that is putting on public services, health and education.
Some would have worked out that the trading arrangements put in place by the EU are designed to suit Germany best and the UK a long way down the list. Did they not see how the economies of Southern European member states were destroyed by Brussels and the big banks. Some way to treat fellow members! Some would have considered that globalisation, a European superstate and protectionist policies within its member bloc, were not entirely what they want. Some would have considered that an ever growing beaurocratic machine was too expensive, too unaccountable and too corrupt for comfort. Some will have read political and economic history and realised that, ultimately, the EU is doomed.
But hey ho...the Remain campaign knew all this and were totally happy with staying in and the Leavers all believed that £350m was going to be spent on the NHS and everything in the garden was going to be rosy and leaving the EU would be trouble free.
Simple isn't it?

Great Post although many on here will fail to understand any if it and continue to label all leavers as stupid and thick,as opposed to being able to make a decision without believing apparent lies.

 

[Lincoln Imp]

80% of the withdrawal agreement agreed so hardly paralysed,shit load of bills non brexit related going on in the parliamentary process
https://services.parliament.uk/bills/

did you seriously think it wasnt possible to look up and see you were talking bollocks?

I am sure that honest men on all sides can agree that the number reaching the statute book has declined by a huge proportion and that Brexit is a significant cause. Perhaps no one is talking balls.

 

[GT49er]

" But the Brexiteers have decided to dump half a century of history, bought at the cost of hard negotiation and compromise, in favour of airy talk of " sovereignty and " control "

....oh how convenient it is to forget our ( Cameron's and some of his predecessors ) appalling efforts at negotiating and continually returning home with less than satisfactory deals. There was a lot more compromise than successful negotiation. For a country with our strength and size of contribution, we were often paid lip-service.
The EU worked well for us up to about 25 years ago. As each year since has gone by, it is clear that we have been presented with a ' like it or lump it ' attitude...' we are pressing ahead with expansionism, protectionism and federalism '

......and, to quote another chunk of that article from the fiercely pro-EU Grauniad:

"Michael Oakeshott, a philosopher, said that to be conservative “is to prefer the familiar to the unknown, to prefer the tried to the untried, fact to mystery, the actual to the possible, the limited to the unbounded.........."

Very good, Michael Oakeshott - but that is the party that decided to dump nearly a millennium of history and bundle us into the EEC back in 1973. A grateful EEC rewarded the party leader with a nice ocean-going racing yacht too....................................

 

[Blue3]

The EU has just finished 1st, 2nd and 3rd in the World Cup we did really well and came 4th

 

[Two Professors]

The EU has just finished 1st, 2nd and 3rd in the World Cup we did really well and came 4th

You have to be Watford zero brain cells,as I don't believe two people can be that stupid!

 

[ManOfSussex]

Chequers has gone pop then - all 4 amendments by the ERG freakoids have been accepted apparently. Fortunately the Maybot has a standard response she can use to this climb-down............

 

[GT49er]

The EU has just finished 1st, 2nd and 3rd in the World Cup we did really well and came 4th

So - three EU countries finished ahead of us. So that means we finished ahead of the other twenty four. I think you're in the wrong playground.

 

[ManOfSussex]

Thank goodness The Tories are all singing from the same hymn sheet though. #strongandstable

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