[Politics] Brexit

[Neville's Breakfast]

Limited immigration does have an appeal. The problem is in the application.

Initially it would seem simple to decide which jobs are skilled and which are not, (Doctor in the former category and hotel cleaner in the latter).

The problems arise somewhere in the middle. If you say IT is a skilled industry, that would appear to be true in the case of coders and engineers, and not the case for data input, but there are lots of grey areas. Ultimately the person making the decision is likely to be a administrator in the civil service, withg no experience or knowledge of the job in question, and an element of box ticking occurs, which is both costly in terms of time and money. There's no evidence that such a system works to the benefit of anyone, as evidenced by 180,000 non EU people coming to work in the UK last year.

Having seen in my own industry (HE) the complete car crash that has arisen in respect of recruiting international students from outside the EU (they are included in the migration stats even though they are paying £12-20k a year to attend courses), I have zero confidence in the politicians making the strategic decisions or the Borders Agency staff administering them. The rules are already very complex, and to extend them to EU students once Brexit occurs will increase the paperwork and reduce the appeal of the UK as a place of excellent learning (Oxford, Cambridge and Imperial are in the top ten of the world).

The ultimate consequence is that the students go elsewhere as the bureacracy and idiocy of politicians and bureaucrats is spectacular.

We have a world class university sector which generates over £7 billion a year from 436,000 international studetns to the UK economy it seems utterly stupid to me. However HE is an industry about which few comment and even less give a shit about as 'people are tired of experts'.

HE is extremely important. i would have thought it would be simple to issue all
International students with student visas for the duration of their course and an offer to stay if they find a job. Isn't that what happens now with non EU students ?
As to the beaurocracy involved in managing borders one could apply the same logic to running the NHS and other public services where administration is required. If the decisions of public servants were that bad then we would all be advocating privatization of just about everything. I agree that there will/would be cost in implementing border control but there are also costs associated with unlimited immigration not least in terms of the price paid by the low paid as wages in many jobs are driven downwards.

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

Some of the unemployed in the UK are feckless and lazy, but many are not. They are however caught up in the web of forms, bureaucracy and queues at local and national government agencies that give little reason to take on seasonal work away from their regular home.

So wouldn't it be better for society to make it easier for these youngsters to take such jobs ? Importing a workforce removes the Government incentive to solve problems such as the benefit trap. In any case limited immigration would still allow for migrant labour just as is the case in Australia. Of great help would be an increase in the minimum wage to Australia like levels which would enable kids paying U.K. costs to take such jobs.

 

[Buzzer]

Or the great British public want cheap food couldn't that have something to do with it as well?

Of course we want cheap food but it comes at the price of worker exploitation in this case, it's absolutely rife in this industry. I'm sorry for the businesses concerned but if they can't afford to pay their employees the minimum wage with the rights that go with that then they shouldn't be in the business of employing people.

 

[El Presidente]

HE is extremely important. i would have thought it would be simple to issue all
International students with student visas for the duration of their course and an offer to stay if they find a job. Isn't that what happens now with non EU students ?
As to the beaurocracy involved in managing borders one could apply the same logic to running the NHS and other public services where administration is required. If the decisions of public servants were that bad then we would all be advocating privatization of just about everything. I agree that there will/would be cost in implementing border control but there are also costs associated with unlimited immigration not least in terms of the price paid by the low paid as wages in many jobs are driven downwards.

There was less of an issue when Universities themselves were able to process applications. The last administration (and I'm not playing party politics here as Labour started it) encouraged the creation of private colleges and universities who would have market themselves to international students regardless of their academic background or ability to speak English. These colleges would also schmooze the politicos, who liked the idea of privatizing HE as it took the whole issue off the public sector debt mountain (as opposed to the creating accounting policies they've been using for years).

When we complained (I work in a Business School for example) we were told at a very high government level that we were scared of the competition, but eventually the politicians found out who had been telling the truth.....such as this one

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-35472768

 

[El Presidente]

So wouldn't it be better for society to make it easier for these youngsters to take such jobs

Absolutely. But to date no one has managed to come up with a system that works, just take a look at the universal benefits cost overrun and implementation debacle (architect IDS) or the bedroom tax fiasco (architect IDS) or the decision to close down Remploy, which specialised in providing jobs for those with physical and/or mental health problems (architect IDS).

 

[Green Cross Code Man]

Absolutely. But to date no one has managed to come up with a system that works, just take a look at the universal benefits cost overrun and implementation debacle (architect IDS) or the bedroom tax fiasco (architect IDS) or the decision to close down Remploy, which specialised in providing jobs for those with physical and/or mental health problems (architect IDS).

I like the idea of universal basic income. Potentially it could cut a lot of paperwork and used in conjunction with the minimum wage, could help lower paid workers a great deal. So far, only Corbyn has advocated it in the UK.

 

[nicko31]

Andrea Leadsom hopes young Britons will take up fruit picking jobs done by EU migrants

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...itons-fruit-picking-eu-migrants-a7342196.html

I still can't believe this clueless and deluded woman was even considered for PM. Is there anywhere in the Western World that doesn't use migrant labour for fruit picking?

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

There was less of an issue when Universities themselves were able to process applications. The last administration (and I'm not playing party politics here as Labour started it) encouraged the creation of private colleges and universities who would have market themselves to international students regardless of their academic background or ability to speak English. These colleges would also schmooze the politicos, who liked the idea of privatizing HE as it took the whole issue off the public sector debt mountain (as opposed to the creating accounting policies they've been using for years).

When we complained (I work in a Business School for example) we were told at a very high government level that we were scared of the competition, but eventually the politicians found out who had been telling the truth.....such as this one

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-35472768

Agreed, again the problem is coming from 'market forces are King.' Standards can't be maintained by these private colleges and in this case they end up being used as an immigration loophole. I'm sure one of the reasons for such a system is to drive down costs but we as a society pay the price. I just think the same argument can be used to justify public administration of our borders.

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

I still can't believe this clueless and deluded woman was even considered for PM. Is there anywhere in the Western World that doesn't use migrant labour for fruit picking?

Of course you're right..on both counts.
In Australia and NZ for example they often hire professional fruit pickers who follow the harvests around the world from northern to Southern Hemisphere. This is particularly true on vineyards. Whether we are in or out of the EU we will make use of migrant labour. It's just the amount that is in question.

 

[Two Professors]

I still can't believe this clueless and deluded woman was even considered for PM. Is there anywhere in the Western World that doesn't use migrant labour for fruit picking?

All the fruit pickers we saw in Roquetas were Spanish-perhaps you should try travelling abroad!

 

[nicko31]

All the fruit pickers we saw in Roquetas were Spanish-perhaps you should try travelling abroad!

Leadson should talk to some farmers and ask them why they employ migrants, then she would understand the industry better, completely out of her depth as Environment Minister.

Thanks for your holiday advice its looks lovely

 

[ManOfSussex]

I still can't believe this clueless and deluded woman was even considered for PM. Is there anywhere in the Western World that doesn't use migrant labour for fruit picking?

There were one-or-two on here who were quite enamoured with her I seem to recall.

 

[Soulman]

Limited immigration does have an appeal. The problem is in the application.

Initially it would seem simple to decide which jobs are skilled and which are not, (Doctor in the former category and hotel cleaner in the latter).

The problems arise somewhere in the middle. If you say IT is a skilled industry, that would appear to be true in the case of coders and engineers, and not the case for data input, but there are lots of grey areas. Ultimately the person making the decision is likely to be a administrator in the civil service, withg no experience or knowledge of the job in question, and an element of box ticking occurs, which is both costly in terms of time and money. There's no evidence that such a system works to the benefit of anyone, as evidenced by 180,000 non EU people coming to work in the UK last year.

Having seen in my own industry (HE) the complete car crash that has arisen in respect of recruiting international students from outside the EU (they are included in the migration stats even though they are paying £12-20k a year to attend courses), I have zero confidence in the politicians making the strategic decisions or the Borders Agency staff administering them. The rules are already very complex, and to extend them to EU students once Brexit occurs will increase the paperwork and reduce the appeal of the UK as a place of excellent learning (Oxford, Cambridge and Imperial are in the top ten of the world).

The ultimate consequence is that the students go elsewhere as the bureacracy and idiocy of politicians and bureaucrats is spectacular.

We have a world class university sector which generates over £7 billion a year from 436,000 international studetns to the UK economy it seems utterly stupid to me. However HE is an industry about which few comment and even less give a shit about as 'people are tired of experts'.

I was living up in Derbyshire in 1982, there was a recession up there then, i don't think it hit very hard down south, unlike the early 90's and 2007 ish.
Anyway i applied to up sticks to South Africa (glad i did not) after a lot of form filling which included proof and reports from my school days etc, a lot of money spent, i was informed that my trade was not needed in South Africa at the present time and perhaps to apply again in the future.
I wonder if the system is similar over here.......doubt it.

 

[ManOfSussex]

I was living up in Derbyshire in 1982, there was a recession up there then, i don't think it hit very hard down south, unlike the early 90's and 2007 ish.
Anyway i applied to up sticks to South Africa (glad i did not) after a lot of form filling which included proof and reports from my school days etc, a lot of money spent, i was informed that my trade was not needed in South Africa at the present time and perhaps to apply again in the future.
I wonder if the system is similar over here.......doubt it.

If you were coming here from South Africa now, which visa would you need - https://www.gov.uk/check-uk-visa/y/south-africa/work/longer_than_six_months

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

Leadson should talk to some farmers and ask them why they employ migrants, then she would understand the industry better, completely out of her depth as Environment Minister.

Thanks for your holiday advice its looks lovely

Watching 'Inside Out' on BBC East at the moment gives some of the answer. It's all about gangmasters and modern day slavery in Lincolnshire. Quote 'there's no way of knowing who picks your fruit and veg in this murky world. ' Migrants Co-erced with baseball bats and paid at less than minimum wage. It's much easier to treat migrant labour in this way than local workers.

 

[jaghebby]

Of course we want cheap food but it comes at the price of worker exploitation in this case, it's absolutely rife in this industry. I'm sorry for the businesses concerned but if they can't afford to pay their employees the minimum wage with the rights that go with that then they shouldn't be in the business of employing people.

So would you pay more for your food? If you would then all well and good but the vast majority I suspect would not! So you could argue we are all partly to blame!

 

[The Rivet]

EU students and the UK tax payer.

2012 report. Nearly half EU students are failing to repay loans costing £11million

2014 report. EU students fail to repay loans to the value of £40million

July 2016

Students from EU states now owe a staggering £1.3bn in BSL's
current lending £958million pa.

So we pay for these EU kids to get a free education in the worlds best universities. You pay, I pay but they don't. Fantastic asset these EU students to us aren't they?

 

[Soulman]

If you were coming here from South Africa now, which visa would you need - https://www.gov.uk/check-uk-visa/y/south-africa/work/longer_than_six_months

Have not looked as i live here........ i never left.

 

[studio150]

Have not looked as i live here........ i never left.

Aviod the question yet again at least you are consistent

 

[BigGully]

So would you pay more for your food? If you would then all well and good but the vast majority I suspect would not! So you could argue we are all partly to blame!

Thats a rather odd logic, you cannot justify illegal practice or somehow use this as good reason for migration, either the market can bear more, or the farmer/supermarket reduces its margins and employs workers with their associated rights and yes preferably willing British workers that otherwise might be unemployed.