[Politics] Brexit

[Baldseagull]

If that doesn't happen,will you bore off?

If "Sunny Uplands" leave voters stop imagining it will be everything they hoped for, I can stop boring you with the generally agreed red lines that the EU will not cross.

Is Two Professors the current tally of educators you have driven to madness?

 

[5ways]

You can't possibly know that unless you are involved with the negotiations. There are many issues that can be used as bargaining chips by both sides. It is actually this that is the weakness of the Brexit case not whether we have a stronger or weaker hand. The real issue is that there is no 'quality control' as to the outcome which could be a stitch up between the Tory party and the EU beaurocrats. The vote to Leave was but the first part of the process. I am increasingly of the view that we can re-unite the country with a debate on the terms of leaving but without the point scoring guessing game as to what is happening in the 'smoke filled rooms'.

It might be a smoke filled room but this was always going to be the situation in the case of Brexit. The underlying fact is that we need access to the single market and will have negotiate to get it. It's not a guessing game -these are the terms of the debate that were clear prior to the referendum.

 

[Mo Gosfield]

It might be a smoke filled room but this was always going to be the situation in the case of Brexit. The underlying fact is that we need access to the single market and will have negotiate to get it. It's not a guessing game -these are the terms of the debate that were clear prior to the referendum.

People need to get into the mindset that the single market as it is today, will at some time, in the near future be gone. The cracks will start to widen and divisions grow. It is doomed to failure and then everybody will have to go back to individual trade deals between individual countries. Informed opinion is it will be less than 15 years. Some are suggesting 8-10 years. It could even be shorter than that.
A hard Brexit gives us the opportunity to cement individual and strong trading deals before the inevitable fallout.

 

[melias shoes]

People need to get into the mindset that the single market as it is today, will at some time, in the near future be gone. The cracks will start to widen and divisions grow. It is doomed to failure and then everybody will have to go back to individual trade deals between individual countries. Informed opinion is it will be less than 15 years. Some are suggesting 8-10 years. It could even be shorter than that.
A hard Brexit gives us the opportunity to cement individual and strong trading deals before the inevitable fallout.

Correct.

 

[Soulman]

People need to get into the mindset that the single market as it is today, will at some time, in the near future be gone. The cracks will start to widen and divisions grow. It is doomed to failure and then everybody will have to go back to individual trade deals between individual countries. Informed opinion is it will be less than 15 years. Some are suggesting 8-10 years. It could even be shorter than that.
A hard Brexit gives us the opportunity to cement individual and strong trading deals before the inevitable fallout.

Exactly.

 

[pastafarian]

It might be a smoke filled room but this was always going to be the situation in the case of Brexit. The underlying fact is that we need access to the single market and will have negotiate to get it. It's not a guessing game -these are the terms of the debate that were clear prior to the referendum.

Everyone has access to the single market, we will still have access to it even with no deals.

Im sure after Theresa Mays address to The UN "we need to be clear all countries have the right to control their borders and protect their citizens" The EU must now realise the message has been constantly very clear from her. We have voted to take back control of our borders and we will. Free movement will end as far as we are concerned.

The EU will have to decide if it reforms itself and allows us and their businesses to have a bespoke favourable deal or will they punish their own industry that trades with the UK and us likewise with tariffs in order to stick to a founding ideal that they themselves are realising is out of touch with many EU citizens.
They might just realise the large number of countries in the club who have to agree to future trade agreements is making it a stagnant institution.
We are well shot of it.

 

[Mo Gosfield]

Classic just classic!

Any more?

There are hundreds of thousands more like her out there....all products of a dumbed-down education system. Leaving school semi-literate. Knowing how to send a text but unable to write a simple letter or construct a simple sentence. All growing up believing that life owes them something. All believing that they they can turn up at some tacky show with no real discernable talent, accompanied by fawning relatives and friends, move their hands in the general direction of their crutch, warble in a sort of clutched and semi-breathless style and become world superstars. Rejection is accompanied by floods of tears and affirmation that, at 18 years of age, this is all they have ever wanted. They exist in a mobile-phone toting, fast food eating, overweight, tattooed, semi-ignorant underclass that know how to bend all the rules in life and exist with the minimum contribution to society.
Brexit revolved around a class of intelligentsia, who know and see what is going on and wanted change to benefit generations to come. A disenchanted and disempowered traditional working class and a whole raft of people like this young lady, who don't have a clue as to how she is controlled and by whom and just decided to vote Leave. The Establishment, corporate and big business world ( the world of vested interest ) the middle strata of society, born from the 70's onwards and understandably feeling less and less attached to the struggles of forebears, happy with their lot, knowing no different and prepared to accept external control and the perceived benefits of that, generally voted Remain.
Massive generalisations I know but how else do you sum up such a divided situation.

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

It might be a smoke filled room but this was always going to be the situation in the case of Brexit. The underlying fact is that we need access to the single market and will have negotiate to get it. It's not a guessing game -these are the terms of the debate that were clear prior to the referendum.

You seem to want things both ways. On the one hand you are saying the terms of the debate were known before the referendum and on the other you appear to be a part of the ' what does Brexit mean ' brigade. I am trying to find common ground with you but you seem to want to just find facts that confirm your view. As others have mentioned , the terms of access to the single market are part of the negotiation. If the price is too high then we won't pay and will simply adopt the relationship with the EU enjoyed by the rest of the world albeit still the outcome of a negotiation. The common ground between us as far as I see it is that none of us voters will as things stand have a say on any deal that is done and I think that lacks democratic mandate. As a by the by I think we have moved on from the referendum debate default debating style of relentlessly pushing one point of view. There is a new reality and it is grey not black and white.

 

[Theatre of Trees]

People need to get into the mindset that the single market as it is today, will at some time, in the near future be gone. The cracks will start to widen and divisions grow. It is doomed to failure and then everybody will have to go back to individual trade deals between individual countries. Informed opinion is it will be less than 15 years. Some are suggesting 8-10 years. It could even be shorter than that.
A hard Brexit gives us the opportunity to cement individual and strong trading deals before the inevitable fallout.

Which year did you visit in your Tardis to find out all this?

 

[Soulman]

Which year did you visit in your Tardis to find out all this?

Probably the same tardis that the Remainers use.

 

[GoldWithFalmer]

I know but how else do you sum up such a divided situation.

Being in the EU.......... that and the by product of a stagnation process ironically dating back to the 1970's......

 

[Theatre of Trees]

Probably the same tardis that the Remainers use.

Which is quite ironic don't you think?

Brexit supporters have rightly chided those minority idiot remainers who thought the sky would fall in on 24 June yet here they are doing the exact same thing in regard to what will happen to the EU after we leave. The words black, kettle and pot spring to mind.

The original post I quoted is a load of gibberish, opinion dressed up as fact by someone attempting to predict the future. Neither you, I or Mo Gosfield has any idea which direction the EU will go in the future, how that institution deals with our leaving will influence its future, a robust root and branch reform may see it get stronger, a fragmentation into regional in-fighting will see it collapse. However, with all these things the answer lies somewhere in between. To dismiss the EU as an entity is utterly foolish and will not be a stance undertaken by our negotiating team.

 

[5ways]

You seem to want things both ways. On the one hand you are saying the terms of the debate were known before the referendum and on the other you appear to be a part of the ' what does Brexit mean ' brigade. I am trying to find common ground with you but you seem to want to just find facts that confirm your view. As others have mentioned , the terms of access to the single market are part of the negotiation. If the price is too high then we won't pay and will simply adopt the relationship with the EU enjoyed by the rest of the world albeit still the outcome of a negotiation. The common ground between us as far as I see it is that none of us voters will as things stand have a say on any deal that is done and I think that lacks democratic mandate. As a by the by I think we have moved on from the referendum debate default debating style of relentlessly pushing one point of view. There is a new reality and it is grey not black and white.

We were told how we would be treated if we Brexited. The EU would drive a hard bargain for access to the internal market - the biggest, richest market in the world essential to our economy. We do know that.

We do not know what Brexit means because we do not know if it will be a hard or soft Brexit.

'Enjoyed by the rest' of the world is the WTO model which is massively inferior to the privileged access we currently enjoy.

 

[GoldWithFalmer]

We were told how we would be treated if we Brexited. The EU would drive a hard bargain for access to the internal market - the biggest, richest market in the world essential to our economy. We do know that.

We do not know what Brexit means because we do not know if it will be a hard or soft Brexit.

'Enjoyed by the rest' of the world is the WTO model which is massively inferior to the privileged access we currently enjoy.

WTO model,whilst short term in hardship,provides a brake on immigration and rules set by the EU,which in turn gives us massive privilege in those areas,to the vastly inferior system the country currently finds it's self in.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

We were told how we would be treated if we Brexited. The EU would drive a hard bargain for access to the internal market - the biggest, richest market in the world essential to our economy. We do know that.

We do not know what Brexit means because we do not know if it will be a hard or soft Brexit.

'Enjoyed by the rest' of the world is the WTO model which is massively inferior to the privileged access we currently enjoy.

I watched an interesting interview with Sir James Dyson last week. In it he said that no open access to the single market wouldn't be a problem. He implied that soaking up tariff costs shouldn't worry British based businesses. His expectation was they would be set at 2-4% ( no idea if that's realistic but he knows more than me ). He also stated that any lack of open access would be more than made up for better access to the rest of the world.

Sir James seems to have done quite well for himself so I think I'll believe him. Would make hard Brexit worth going for.

 

[Soulman]

Which is quite ironic don't you think?

Brexit supporters have rightly chided those minority idiot remainers who thought the sky would fall in on 24 June yet here they are doing the exact same thing in regard to what will happen to the EU after we leave. The words black, kettle and pot spring to mind.

The original post I quoted is a load of gibberish, opinion dressed up as fact by someone attempting to predict the future. Neither you, I or Mo Gosfield has any idea which direction the EU will go in the future, how that institution deals with our leaving will influence its future, a robust root and branch reform may see it get stronger, a fragmentation into regional in-fighting will see it collapse. However, with all these things the answer lies somewhere in between. To dismiss the EU as an entity is utterly foolish and will not be a stance undertaken by our negotiating team.

I have not "chided those minority " Remainers, you had your opinion and vote same as me. The constant whining since and the accusations of "morons, xenophobes, little Englanders etc" has been used against anyone that voted Leave. We shall see, same as the Leave voters voiced their opinion on the mass immigration in Germany only to be ridiculed, turns out Angie now agrees. So we shall see and none of us can correctly predict what will happen.
Just to add that if the referendum was tomorrow then I would still vote Leave.

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

We were told how we would be treated if we Brexited. The EU would drive a hard bargain for access to the internal market - the biggest, richest market in the world essential to our economy. We do know that.

We do not know what Brexit means because we do not know if it will be a hard or soft Brexit.

'Enjoyed by the rest' of the world is the WTO model which is massively inferior to the privileged access we currently enjoy.

Implicit in driving a hard bargain is a willingness to walk away. I don't believe the EU is prepared to do this on every issue. There will be compromise and as neither side will disclose its actual negotiating position to you or I, it means that you are merely speculating. I could also ask you 'what does a hard bargain mean ?'... It is about as woolly as 'Brexit means Brexit'....you could tell me what your hard bargain would be but you do not work for the EU (I think) and therefore you are presenting something as fact that patently isn't....

 

[GoldWithFalmer]

Just to add that if the referendum was tomorrow then I would still vote Leave.

Me to,i know uniformity can work in favor,but we originally signed up to the common (trade) market and slowly,year by year that agreement gets further from what people who in 1975 voted to stay in.

 

[5ways]

WTO model,whilst short term in hardship,provides a brake on immigration and rules set by the EU,which in turn gives us massive privilege in those areas,to the vastly inferior system the country currently finds it's self in.

The current system works very well, economically speaking at least. We're dismantling a system that works with a mystery system that may or may not include free trade with the biggest economy in the world.

 

[Theatre of Trees]

I have not "chided those minority " Remainers, you had your opinion and vote same as me. The constant whining since and the accusations of "morons, xenophobes, little Englanders etc" has been used against anyone that voted Leave. We shall see, same as the Leave voters voiced their opinion on the mass immigration in Germany only to be ridiculed, turns out Angie now agrees. So we shall see and none of us can correctly predict what will happen.
Just to add that if the referendum was tomorrow then I would still vote Leave.

I refer you to

Probably the same tardis that the Remainers use.