[Politics] Brexit

[Soulman]

It is not silly at all. Suggestions that remainers were bedwetters, traitors and balls-free wimps floated round, especially in the early days but I really don't recall anyone ever suggesting that 17m Englishmen were racists, in spite of one poster's loony claims that it happened. The 'example' you pasted was chronically weak - for right or wrong I took The Clamp's reference to brown foreigners to be a reaction to Farage's June billboard showing middle-eastern gents heading towards us (a billboard the poster with the loony claims presumably supported, being an enthusiastic UKIP supporter).

Are you trying to convince us you belong to some sort of victimhood cult?

Ok, I take it this was a dig at me, my bad I should have put SOME of the 17m . By the way as you are being pedantic, it is not 17m racist English men, not only were English women involved in the voting but also other men and women from other UK countries. Perhaps you like me should remember to put SOME in every time we make a point eh.

 

[The Clamp]

Hope the Nissan deal turns out to be as good as it sounds. Either way, very happy that 7000 jobs are secured.

 

[Diego Napier]

what a load of rubbish
democracy and accountability are real and true.they are not imagined,psychological or based on faith.
they are measurable,you can have more, the same amount or less

OK, let's give it another shot. There is no logical distinction between Democracy, the Stock Exchange, Christianity, Capitalism, Voodooism, Money, Communism, UK legal system, Islam etc. They are all belief systems imagined and developed by people to solve problems and order society. Yes, some may appear more tangible than others but they are nevertheless artificial, social constructs with no reliance on the physics, chemistry or biology of the real world.

You insist that Democracy is "real and true" and imply that Religion isn't.

How many hundreds of thousands of churches and temples have been built in the world; would you say that those buildings are "real and true"? Our latest form of Democracy (First-past-the-post, men & women over 18) also has a glorious temple on the banks of the Thames. They are all the tangible artefacts of imagined belief systems.

How many millions of people have been killed in the name of Christ? Would you say all those deaths are "real and true"? The UK has also killed millions of people in the name of our Democracy (& Capitalism). They are all the tangible effects of imagined belief systems

Christianity promises that if you lead a good life you will be rewarded after death.

It really is that simple and although some might say the reward is illusory, if you believe in the message then you have complete control over whether you live for all eternity in heaven or hell.

UK Democracy promises that if you vote for someone and you don't like what they do during the next 5 years then your reward will be that you can decide not to vote for them next time (i.e after the event). Of course, it may be that the political party to which your representative belongs decides on a policy that neither of you find acceptable. Or it may be that your representative agrees with some of your beliefs but not others. Or you may decide that it is a political party you support and not their representative. Or it might be that you support the party aims and the personality of their representative equally. Or it might be that you support the representative because they take a particular stance on a single issue about which you feel strongly. Or your representative might decide to cross the floor and change their party allegiance. Or it might be that you have a single issue about which you feel strongly that is supported by a party whose general beliefs you find unacceptable. Or you feel strongly about an issue that is not supported by any party. Or it might be that you believe that proportional representation is much better than first-past-the-post (voters in the top 10% of constituencies wield 30 times more power than the least influential). Or that vote weighting is better than one person one vote (in 2010 more than half of all voters voted against their winning MP). Or Democracy is wrong (in the safest of seats your vote is virtually worthless). And this doesn't take into account all those hidden decisions and accommodations taken by the mandarins in Her Majesty's civil service that are not subject to your accountability scrutiny. Or those decisions influenced by powerful political lobby groups or UK/global business interests (e.g. Harold Macmillan's minister for transport determining a third of Britain's railways should be removed whilst holding significant business interests in road construction).

It really is even more complicated than that and although some might say the reward is illusory, if you believe in the message then you will subject your representative and/or his party to accountability.

The reason that both Christianity and Democracy look remarkably like belief systems is because that is what they are.

You don't answers any of my questions but continue to plug away with your accountability mantra. That's blind faith for you.

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

OK, let's give it another shot. There is no logical distinction between Democracy, the Stock Exchange, Christianity, Capitalism, Voodooism, Money, Communism, UK legal system, Islam etc. They are all belief systems imagined and developed by people to solve problems and order society. Yes, some may appear more tangible than others but they are nevertheless artificial, social constructs with no reliance on the physics, chemistry or biology of the real world.

You insist that Democracy is "real and true" and imply that Religion isn't.

How many hundreds of thousands of churches and temples have been built in the world; would you say that those buildings are "real and true"? Our latest form of Democracy (First-past-the-post, men & women over 18) also has a glorious temple on the banks of the Thames. They are all the tangible artefacts of imagined belief systems.

How many millions of people have been killed in the name of Christ? Would you say all those deaths are "real and true"? The UK has also killed millions of people in the name of our Democracy (& Capitalism). They are all the tangible effects of imagined belief systems

Christianity promises that if you lead a good life you will be rewarded after death.

It really is that simple and although some might say the reward is illusory, if you believe in the message then you have complete control over whether you live for all eternity in heaven or hell.

UK Democracy promises that if you vote for someone and you don't like what they do during the next 5 years then your reward will be that you can decide not to vote for them next time (i.e after the event). Of course, it may be that the political party to which your representative belongs decides on a policy that neither of you find acceptable. Or it may be that your representative agrees with some of your beliefs but not others. Or you may decide that it is a political party you support and not their representative. Or it might be that you support the party aims and the personality of their representative equally. Or it might be that you support the representative because they take a particular stance on a single issue about which you feel strongly. Or your representative might decide to cross the floor and change their party allegiance. Or it might be that you have a single issue about which you feel strongly that is supported by a party whose general beliefs you find unacceptable. Or you feel strongly about an issue that is not supported by any party. Or it might be that you believe that proportional representation is much better than first-past-the-post (voters in the top 10% of constituencies wield 30 times more power than the least influential). Or that vote weighting is better than one person one vote (in 2010 more than half of all voters voted against their winning MP). Or Democracy is wrong (in the safest of seats your vote is virtually worthless). And this doesn't take into account all those hidden decisions and accommodations taken by the mandarins in Her Majesty's civil service that are not subject to your accountability scrutiny. Or those decisions influenced by powerful political lobby groups or UK/global business interests (e.g. Harold Macmillan's minister for transport determining a third of Britain's railways should be removed whilst holding significant business interests in road construction).

It really is even more complicated than that and although some might say the reward is illusory, if you believe in the message then you will subject your representative and/or his party to accountability.

The reason that both Christianity and Democracy look remarkably like belief systems is because that is what they are.

You don't answers any of my questions but continue to plug away with your accountability mantra. That's blind faith for you.

I can't speak for [MENTION=21401]pastafarian[/MENTION] but I can't quite grasp the comparisons you are making. Perhaps 'fairness' should be substituted for 'accountability.' If there are a group of people deciding which pub to go to then the fairest way to
decide is a show of hands and majority wins. That, in essence is democracy. If you lose then you gracefully accept the result because you hope that if you win next time then the other side will accept that result. Everyone has a stake in the system
win or lose hence the outcry when Donald Trump refused to confirm his acceptance of this system.
Religion has no such fairness, just belief. One is either a believer or an unbeliever in a truth. There is no truth in democracy just an attempt at fairness.

 

[ManOfSussex]

Belfast High Court Reject Brexit Challenge - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-37796836

The challenge by politicians from Sinn Féin, the Social Democratic and Labour Party (SDLP), the Alliance Party and the Green Party suggested the UK government could not trigger Article 50 without a parliamentary vote.
They said the Brexit decision should be examined and voted on by parliament or, failing that, by the Northern Ireland Assembly.
They have indicated they intend to appeal against the decision at the Supreme Court, and that this could be heard as early as December.

 

[Norman Potting]

OK, let's give it another shot. ,....................

Winston Churchill . "It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried".

My first and last post on this thread!

 

[studio150]

Ok, I take it this was a dig at me, my bad I should have put SOME of the 17m . By the way as you are being pedantic, it is not 17m racist English men, not only were English women involved in the voting but also other men and women from other UK countries. Perhaps you like me should remember to put SOME in every time we make a point eh.

Indeed some are saying that some UKIP supporters and voters are thick uneducated idiots, but then some others are saying that some UKIP supporters can only aspire to reach this level of intelligence due to their inability to understand written English and grasp simple concepts and persist in this, probably because some others are unable to dumb anything down to a teletubbies level.

 

[Soulman]

Indeed some are saying that some UKIP supporters and voters are thick uneducated idiots, but then some others are saying that some UKIP supporters can only aspire to reach this level of intelligence due to their inability to understand written English and grasp simple concepts and persist in this, probably because some others are unable to dumb anything down to a teletubbies level.

Left-wing people care so much, it makes them hate people who don’t show that they care. These people are right-wing people. Left-wing people have given them a name. It is “Tory scum”. Left-wing people like to shout at the right-wing people and tell them that they are scum even when they aren’t listening.
Left-wing people like to be sad and unhappy

Many left-wing people have a very nice life, but they like to be sad. To help with this, they choose to be sad for other people. Sometimes these people are far away and sometimes they are nearby, but different to them

 

[Pretty pink fairy]

As has been mentioned before a leading Brexit economist has said that the virtual elimination of British manufacturing would probably result from tariff-free deals with non-EU countries but this needn't worry us at all. He wasn't setting out to be doom and gloomy. He was just contentedly pointing out what might happen if the UK took his advice and voted Leave. Tin hats on everyone.

found that cheap flight yet
regards
DR

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

No you were not... here is the post you replied to, why lie. Post 1809

Quote Originally Posted by Green Cross Code Man View Post
Out of interest, did they show his chancellor saying there would need to be an emergency budget and instant tax rises?
Not that I recall

My word you're stupid.

I read in the Cuba thread you gave away all your crayons to the locals. I'd ask for them back so you can draw some pictures for your mum to put on the fridge; anything to keep you from posting.

 

[studio150]

My word you're stupid.

I read in the Cuba thread you gave away all your crayons to the locals. I'd ask for them back so you can draw some pictures for your mum to put on the fridge; anything to keep you from posting.

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

Totally agree, NHS are keen to get money back from motor accidents and employees work injuries, but are unable to ask if a visitor is eligible for free treatment or needs to pay. Fortunately I have never needed to have medical treatment while abroad, but there are enough stories in the papers to support the view that foreign hospitals etc are more clued up on seeking payment. This may be down to no NHS model abroad.

Yes, it could be the nature of the NHS model. Having said that the NHS is funded by commissioning bodies to provide specific services. It is these commissioners that hold responsibility to the taxpayer so I would have thought they would make it a condition of the commission that this money is collected.

 

[Green Cross Code Man]

My word you're stupid.

I read in the Cuba thread you gave away all your crayons to the locals. I'd ask for them back so you can draw some pictures for your mum to put on the fridge; anything to keep you from posting.

I was referring to the quote about Cameron's predictions that happened to coincide with the posters view. What is stupid with pointing out that there were many things predicted by both sides prior to the referendum, some of which were true and some of which weren't?

There was no need to be insulting, I do not believe I have addressed you unkindly. That speaks a lot about an illiberal attitude.

 

[Soulman]

My word you're stupid.

I read in the Cuba thread you gave away all your crayons to the locals. I'd ask for them back so you can draw some pictures for your mum to put on the fridge; anything to keep you from posting.

Great response from the German know all. Funny man.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

I was referring to the quote about Cameron's predictions that happened to coincide with the posters view. What is stupid with pointing out that there were many things predicted by both sides prior to the referendum, some of which were true and some of which weren't?

There was no need to be insulting, I do not believe I have addressed you unkindly. That speaks a lot about an illiberal attitude.

My post quoted, and was aimed, at [MENTION=26105]Soulman[/MENTION].

 

[studio150]

I was referring to the quote about Cameron's predictions that happened to coincide with the posters view. What is stupid with pointing out that there were many things predicted by both sides prior to the referendum, some of which were true and some of which weren't?

There was no need to be insulting, I do not believe I have addressed you unkindly. That speaks a lot about an illiberal attitude.

I think you have misread these posts, in that neither of these were directed at you. As you say the Sky News trailer was mentioned that included a clip from David Cameron, and you asked if George Osborne was it. However someone else butted in and either failed to understand this, or chose to ignore this.

I am surprised you read that these posts applied to you, given that I don't believe you gave any crayons away to the locals in Cuba.

 

[studio150]

Great response from the German know all. Funny man.

As opposed to the unfunny idiot who accuses people of lying because they are unable or unwilling to understand what has been written

 

[Green Cross Code Man]

My post quoted, and was aimed, at [MENTION=26105]Soulman[/MENTION].

It also quoted something I'd said and as such I wrongly attributed your insult to me as well. The rest is between you and [MENTION=26105]Soulman[/MENTION]. The thread seems to be becoming ever more vitriolic, which is a pity IMO.

 

[Green Cross Code Man]

I think you have misread these posts, in that neither of these were directed at you. As you say the Sky News trailer was mentioned that included a clip from David Cameron, and you asked if George Osborne was it. However someone else butted in and either failed to understand this, or chose to ignore this.

I am surprised you read that these posts applied to you, given that I don't believe you gave any crayons away to the locals in Cuba.

I see that now. Thanks.

 

[studio150]

It also quoted something I'd said. I can handle a mistake. The rest is between you and [MENTION=26105]Soulman[/MENTION]. The thread seems to be becoming ever more vitriolic, which is a pity IMO.

Which is down to one person who makes false accusations