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[Politics] Brexit

If there was a second Brexit referendum how would you vote?


  • Total voters
    1,099


5ways

Well-known member
Sep 18, 2012
2,217
I'm not suggesting everyone should read this, but there's a good article in today's FT (see below), by Martin Wolf. I've read his columns regularly over the years, and he's always seemed a pretty balanced guy to me. Just to be clear, I'm a "Bremainer", so I'm obviously biased - but it's articles like this that convince me I'm right!

If the UK voted to leave the EU, it would almost certainly be outside the arrangement organising the life of our neighbours and principal economic partners forever. Given this, the question is whether the option to leave should be exercised now. My answer is: absolutely not. To see why, let us examine popular arguments in favour of departure.

First, membership has brought few benefits. This is false. The Centre for European Reform estimates that it has raised trade with EU members by 55 per cent, increasing productivity and output. Trade creation within the EU has far exceeded diversion of trade from elsewhere. Europe has also brought a strong competition policy and control of state aid. These are important gains.
Second, membership has imposed huge costs. In fact the net fiscal cost is a mere 0.5 per cent of gross domestic product. Moreover, this could be regained in full only if the UK abandoned altogether its preferential access to the EU market. The UK is also one of the least regulated high-income economies. Its recent labour market performance demonstrates its continuing (and remarkable) flexibility. A study from the Centre for European Policy Studies adds that only “6.8 per cent of UK primary legislation and 14.1 per cent of UK secondary legislation” was passed in order to implement EU law.
Third, an increasingly integrated eurozone will dictate to the UK. Yet a full political union of the eurozone looks quite unlikely. Its members also differ on many points, which opens up opportunities for UK influence.
Fourth, the UK should leave because a eurozone break-up would damage the UK economy. If the eurozone broke up in a disorderly fashion, the damage to its closest partners might be substantial. Yet the EU will remain the UK’s biggest trading partner indefinitely. Thus the UK would be damaged by a eurozone break-up, whether in the EU or not. Arguing that leaving would shield the UK against such a disaster would be like arguing Canada should leave the North American Free Trade Agreement, to avoid a US financial crisis. It makes no sense.
Fifth, the UK should leave because the EU is slow-growing. It is plausible that the UK’s trade with the rest of the world will expand relative to trade with its slow-growing neighbours. But reducing access to EU markets deliberately would make sense only if membership prevented the UK from trading with the rest of the world. Germany’s export performance demonstrates that it does not.
Sixth, membership of the EU prevents the UK from opening up world markets. Yet the EU was a moving force in three successful global trade negotiations: the Kennedy, Tokyo and Uruguay rounds. It has increasingly turned towards preferential trade arrangements. The clout of the EU gives it far greater capacity to open up the markets of, say, China, India or the US than the UK could do on its own.
Seventh, it would be easy to agree on alternatives to EU membership. Yet those recommending leaving have no agreed position. There are three plausible alternatives: full departure with trade regulated by the World Trade Organisation, which would cost the UK its preferential market access to the EU; Swiss-style membership of a trade arrangement in goods, with bilateral deals in other areas, which is complex and would require the UK to retain free movement of people; and Norwegian-style membership of the European Economic Area, giving full access (except for having to abide by rules of origin in trade in goods) but would deprive the UK of a say on regulations. In all, the more sovereignty the UK wishes to regain, the less preferential access it retains. This trade-off cannot be fudged.
Eighth, it will be easy for the UK to obtain whatever it wants from the EU. Sometimes this argument is buttressed by the statement that the rest of the EU runs a trade surplus with the UK, which it will be desperate to keep. This is naive. Divorces are rarely harmonious. Moreover, countries with big surpluses with the UK (notably Germany) would continue to sell their goods to the UK, even if Brexit led to a small rise in the import tariff. The share of UK trade done with the rest of the EU is also far greater than the share of EU trade done with the UK. Thus the idea that a departing UK could dictate terms is a fantasy.
Above, all those promoting departure ignore what the UK’s European partners think about the EU. The political elites, particularly of Germany and France, regard the preservation of an integrated Europe as their highest national interest. They will want to make clear to all that departure carries a heavy price. That price is likely to include attempts to drive euro-related financial markets out of London.
Ninth, it will be easy to reach an agreement on controlling immigration. But if the UK wanted to retain preferential access to EU markets it would be required to retain labour mobility. If, instead, it abandoned attempts to retain preferential access, it might then impose work permits on EU citizens. This would make the UK jobs market more inflexible, particularly for skilled people. As important, the EU would reciprocate. That would adversely affect British people working and living in the EU.
Tenth, the uncertainty associated with leaving the EU would be modest. In fact, the uncertainties would be pervasive: we do not know what the UK government negotiating an exit would want; we do not know what the rest of the EU would offer; we do not know how long negotiations would last; and we do not know what the outcome would be.

Those in favour of leaving offer fantasies of damage done by staying and of opportunity opened by departure. None of these arguments has much merit. The rational thing to do is for the UK to continue to enjoy its unique arrangement, which has brought it the advantages of membership with so few of the disadvantages. As our foreign friends tell us, to do anything else would be mad.

I was told off for quoting from the FT because one of their writers may have supported joining the Euro a decade ago.
 






Two Professors

Two Mad Professors
Jul 13, 2009
7,617
Multicultural Brum
I have to say that post by Jim in the West seems to me to be spot on and very logical in its arguments to remain. I have seen nothing comparable from the supporters of Brexit that isn't complete fantasy or delusional. So my vote will be to stay in!

You are Jim in the West just agreeing with yourself,strange person!
 


GoldWithFalmer

Seaweed! Seaweed!
Apr 24, 2011
12,687
SouthCoast
Talking about 18 year olds,reading your moronic post and that pathetic symbol you obviously are one.

I'll stand with you on EU.....but that Avatar is a cat well kitten and i have time for the cats....
 


Herr Tubthumper

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Jul 11, 2003
62,708
The Fatherland






Soulman

New member
Oct 22, 2012
10,966
Sompting
E liquids





This is an important email detailing how we are going to operate post TPD. If you don't know what the TPD is it's a very poorly thought out over-regulation of a market that has been doing very well under its own steam, this is the EU at its bureaucratic worst.

Now all our UK made eliquid we will not have to notify because we are not classed as the producer, because we don't make the e-liquid ourselves, but as our Hangsen is imported from China we are classed as a producer and we will have to notify (and pay an initial fee plus annual fee for every flavour that we sell) to be able to continue selling. This is where it gets interesting because some of our flavours we do not sell enough of to cover the notification and anual fee, sadly these flavours will have to be removed from the website but NOT UNTIL MAY 2017.

We've had a quick cursory glance and we think about 5 to 10 flavours will be affected from around 70 that we currently sell. If you like tobacco flavours or any menthol based flavour (HS Menthol Sensation/Menthol) you will be fine as we sell enough of these per year to cover the costs of notification. We will of course try and lose as few flavours as possible, blame the EU for this if your flavour disappears.

Another stupid rule is that the maximum size of bottle we can sell is 10ml, but we will try and price the Hangsen at £1.99 for 10ml so you will not be paying any more than you currently are for 30ml, but if Hangsen cannot give us a good price on the 10ml bottles we will be forced into increasing the price, again, blame the EU for this, these are the stupid rule that they have made up.

All of this will NOT BE HAPPENING JUST YET as we have plenty of time to get the notifications in so we will be selling 30ml bottles and all flavours until AT LEAST NOVEMBER 2016, after that we will still be able to sell 30ml bottles UP UNTIL MAY 2017. But we will be introducing the 10ml bottles from November 2016 as and when we run out of 30ml bottles.

There will also be other restrictions but we will inform you of these over the coming months.

If this sounds like a load of sh*t it's because it is, you know what to do on June 23rd if you don't like it. ;-)
 






Two Professors

Two Mad Professors
Jul 13, 2009
7,617
Multicultural Brum
You seem to have a habit of thinking people are one and the same. Is this a reflection of your problem with maths?

Far from it.There was a poster called Jim in the West on Army Rumours who had multiple identities.Frequently posted on a current thread,and then used another identity to agree with himself,and a third to tell himself how clever he was.But one day he got confused and posted the same cut and paste straight after himself,and was found out.My problem with maths is I find people who use it all the time become really anal about correcting people who couldn't give a toss what you think!
 


Jim in the West

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Sep 13, 2003
4,954
Way out West
Far from it.There was a poster called Jim in the West on Army Rumours who had multiple identities.Frequently posted on a current thread,and then used another identity to agree with himself,and a third to tell himself how clever he was.But one day he got confused and posted the same cut and paste straight after himself,and was found out.My problem with maths is I find people who use it all the time become really anal about correcting people who couldn't give a toss what you think!

Well - it's not me. Check with Bozza if you're still concerned!
 


Maldini

Banned
Aug 19, 2015
927
I'm the Remain camps worst nightmare.I'm the untouchable Brexit voter.I couldn't care less about facts and figures,trade deals,blah blah blha.I want out.

I'm in a bad marriage and I just want to dump this b....and go live on my own and do my own thing like before.
Couldn't care less if I lose the house and struggle for cash because I know I'll be happy.
Goodbye EU.Can't say it's been real because it's been crap.
 




GoldWithFalmer

Seaweed! Seaweed!
Apr 24, 2011
12,687
SouthCoast
Far from it.There was a poster called Jim in the West on Army Rumours who had multiple identities.Frequently posted on a current thread,and then used another identity to agree with himself,and a third to tell himself how clever he was.But one day he got confused and posted the same cut and paste straight after himself,and was found out.My problem with maths is I find people who use it all the time become really anal about correcting people who couldn't give a toss what you think!

That is crazy.....i just agree with myself,disagree and humbly accept i was wrong or i blow the trumpet time to time.... :vuvu:
 


Soulman

New member
Oct 22, 2012
10,966
Sompting
Oh no - found out! Just kidding - not sure where you got that from?

To be fair about an hour after you made that long post, a poster turns up who has not commented at all on this or any other EU thread......in fact he has made 3 posts since 2013 before this show of appreciation. You have only been commenting the last few days and been a member since 2003, probably coincidence though.
 


Herr Tubthumper

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Jul 11, 2003
62,708
The Fatherland




Jim in the West

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Sep 13, 2003
4,954
Way out West
To be fair about an hour after you made that long post, a poster turns up who has not commented at all on this or any other EU thread......in fact he has made 3 posts since 2013 before this show of appreciation. You have only been commenting the last few days and been a member since 2003, probably coincidence though.

Yes - just coincidence. To be honest I've been avoiding this thread as I feared it would just be a hot-bed of rabid Daily Mail readers. Glad to find it's not quite as bad as that!
 


drew

Drew
NSC Patron
Oct 3, 2006
23,622
Burgess Hill
Far from it.There was a poster called Jim in the West on Army Rumours who had multiple identities.Frequently posted on a current thread,and then used another identity to agree with himself,and a third to tell himself how clever he was.But one day he got confused and posted the same cut and paste straight after himself,and was found out.My problem with maths is I find people who use it all the time become really anal about correcting people who couldn't give a toss what you think!

I don't use maths all the time if that's meant to be a dig. However, everyone should have a basic understanding. If you're concerned about duplicate accounts, have a word with a moderator!
 




Soulman

New member
Oct 22, 2012
10,966
Sompting
European Commission: Organization Announces Plan to Sue Britain Over Road Tolls for Large Vehicles
EU Commission President Jean-Claude Juncker's Chief of Staff Martin Selmayr said the Commission will take legal proceedings against Britain for treating foreign heavy goods vehicles unfairly.

JUST weeks before the Brexit poll the the European Commission has announced plans to sue the UK over a road tolls for heavy goods vehicles.
Thanks Brussels! You've just managed to convince many more people we're better off out
 




cunning fergus

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Jan 18, 2009
4,887
Whilst GB has had some very odd posts, to be fair to him I think his comment was merely a rebuttal of someone else suggesting those for Remain are 18 year old cowards!!!


Sure, But then I live by the maxim that it's always better to have free speech so you can work out who the knob heads are.

These days there are too many pissy pant fannys' wanting to close down debate because they don't like or agree with what they hear, it's a very sad state of affairs.
 


cunning fergus

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Jan 18, 2009
4,887
Very much so and its these people who made this country what it is only for the younger socialist nobs turning a blind eye to our great history because they don't like our past...They read about our history and become anti British,shame we can't ship these out the country :)


The real shame of it is that they were generations who understood and were confident about what the country could do in the face of monumental adversity.

I always remember a debate on the radio in the early 90s about the EU and Maastricht and a eurosceptic was debating with a Europhile and making a point about the general public being anti EU.......I can't remember who they were but I always remember the sneering response from the Europhile who gleefully went on about old fashioned people with old fashioned ideas who would die out to be replaced by pro EU generations.

Turned me cold at the time, but sadly I think he was right........we have a generation of quislings.
 


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