[Politics] Brexit

[Simster]

I agree to a point, but we don't actually know what the Leavers were voting for (there was no plan, or unifying vision). Plus, we were told beforehand that the Referendum result would be advisory, and non-binding. Therefore, I think it's a bit of a stretch to now say that we are absolutely bound by the result. And, of course, over 48% of voters want to stay (that's a pretty large minority) - added to which nearly a third of the electorate didn't vote (for good or bad). Lastly, you have to add in the fact that the whole campaign was laced with lies, deception and scare-mongering (on both sides).

As a Remainer, I find it both difficult to accept the result, but also difficult to argue that we shouldn't now at least try to get the best Brexit possible. However, for all the reasons above, Brexit MUST be a soft-Brexit (imho).

I think this is just about where I am with this. Many Brexiters are quick to tar remainers with this undemocratic brush, but have conveniently forgotten the rallying cry from Farage before the election, that if it was 52-48 to the remainers then it would remain unfinished business. It would therefore be completely unreasonable to expect everyone to just accept a narrow Brexit result as a mandate to simply rip up our membership, especially as it can't then be undone. A soft Brexit it must be if we have to do this at all. And regardless of bluster, we need to know the terms of our departure.

 

[Baldseagull]

Two, three, more referendums - whatever. So, we should go on having referendums until we get the 'right' result - that's what you appear to be adwvocating. And you really can't see how that's less democratic? Words fail me!

No, just one where the vote returns a decent majority.
What we have is a slender majority, with many people regretting their leave vote, some surprised that now the leave campaign has won, they say that £350M is not going to be available to the NHS, some in the belief that remain would win easily made a protest vote for leave, some surprised that leaving the E.U. will not stop refugees and some surprised that project fear was not all bull.

If you really want the government to enact the will of the people, make sure you know what the will of the people is, if you are confident that no one is going to change their minds, what worry is there for you?

Please tell me why you fear a second referendum, if you want democracy.

 

[beorhthelm]

A referendum in itself is not democracy, it is a tool of democracy. I really do not understand how 2 referendums are less democratic than one.

Respect for democracy surely means you must be sure what the people want.

so respect what the majority voted for. asking for another "are we really sure" referendum now is all about not accepting the result. if theres a meaningful change in what is delivered to what is expected, then a new referendum may be appropriate. be warned here, your next referendum may be about accepting a light deal you'd like over a more hardline deal. its funny how the remain camp early on set out its stall on "there's no second referendum" and now many want one.

I agree to a point, but we don't actually know what the Leavers were voting for (there was no plan, or unifying vision). Plus, we were told beforehand that the Referendum result would be advisory, and non-binding. Therefore, I think it's a bit of a stretch to now say that we are absolutely bound by the result.

though it isnt binding, the mantra was always "out means out". would you expect to be bound by the result if it was 51.9% to remain, or asking for a remain-lite arrangement to be negotiated?

 

[1901Phil]

Probably as a take over bid has been made by a SA company

The share price of Poundland has surged.... Another indicator of where the post-brexit UK is heading .

 

[Guinness Boy]

though it isnt binding, the mantra was always "out means out". would you expect to be bound by the result if it was 51.9% to remain, or asking for a remain-lite arrangement to be negotiated?

Well here's an interesting thing. If it had been 51.9% to remain then this thread would be full of Brexit voters demanding another referendum because it was so close but it also would have strengthened our negotiating position within the EU. Remain-lite it may well have been since Cameron would have been well within his rights to go to the EU and tell them that we were within a whisker of leaving because he didn't get all of his demands. We'd also really have seen how much Europe did want us to stay in their response.

This is the really frustrating thing about the way the vote went, it closes down all of our options. A close vote to remain would have seen doors opening rather than closing, That's why companies and the currency markets have taken it badly IMO.

 

[Billy the Fish]

it also would have strengthened our negotiating position within the EU. Remain-lite it may well have been since Cameron would have been well within his rights to go to the EU and tell them that we were within a whisker of leaving because he didn't get all of his demands. We'd also really have seen how much Europe did want us to stay in their response.

I disagree, that is not how the EU operates. I think they would've seen a remain vote as a green light to press ahead without reform. They don't care what happens in referendums, you only have to look back to referendums on the EU constitution - France and the Netherlands both rejected it so they had to re-badge it as the Lisbon treaty 3 years later and funnily enough they didn't bother asking the people again, with the exception of Ireland who they had to ask twice to get the right answer.

 

[Jim in the West]

though it isnt binding, the mantra was always "out means out". would you expect to be bound by the result if it was 51.9% to remain, or asking for a remain-lite arrangement to be negotiated?

The difference is that with Remain it was pretty clear what you were voting for. On the other hand there was no Leave plan, so people voted Leave for all sorts of different reasons. Not having a plan was, of course, laughable, but it actually worked in the end, as people could imagine for themselves what Brexit might look like.

 

[Soulman]

At the end of the day Cameron and the Remainers thought staying in was a cert, well it wasn't.

 

[beorhthelm]

Well here's an interesting thing. If it had been 51.9% to remain then this thread would be full of Brexit voters demanding another referendum because it was so close but it also would have strengthened our negotiating position within the EU.

and those demands would have been rightly ignored. as would any attempt to "renegotiate" with EU, they wouldnt listen to a prime minister having won a vote to remain ask for more - he got naff all back in Febuary in the first place. EU would have been business as usual. ironcially the "vote leave for a renegotiation" that was mooted early on would have been a more sensible of approaches. as would highlighting the non-binding nature. the whole debate could have been a completely different tone, making the unsavory immigration element a side show, with more discussion around how we see ourselfs in Europe. by making the claim that the referendum outcome must be definitive the remain camp cut off their options in the event of a loss.

 

[Baldseagull]

so respect what the majority voted for. asking for another "are we really sure" referendum now is all about not accepting the result. if theres a meaningful change in what is delivered to what is expected, then a new referendum may be appropriate. be warned here, your next referendum may be about accepting a light deal you'd like over a more hardline deal. its funny how the remain camp early on set out its stall on "there's no second referendum" and now many want one.



though it isnt binding, the mantra was always "out means out". would you expect to be bound by the result if it was 51.9% to remain, or asking for a remain-lite arrangement to be negotiated?

Absolutely there would be attempts made, and the narrow margin cited, to get greater control on immigration without leaving the E.U. if the result had gone the other way. We are not the only country with an issue on this subject and I am fairly sure some restrictions will be allowed in the future E.U., or some mechanism devised to discourage large amounts in one direction.

If the result had been the other way, I would be expecting a second referendum to be sought by the Leave campaigners, and I expect they would get one eventually, not in this parliament but I am damn sure that another referendum would be an issue that would have come up in the next election. The difference with leaving is that we cannot just join up again in the next Parliament.

 

[GT49er]

No, just one where the vote returns a decent majority.
What we have is a slender majority, with many people regretting their leave vote, some surprised that now the leave campaign has won, they say that £350M is not going to be available to the NHS, some in the belief that remain would win easily made a protest vote for leave, some surprised that leaving the E.U. will not stop refugees and some surprised that project fear was not all bull.

If you really want the government to enact the will of the people, make sure you know what the will of the people is, if you are confident that no one is going to change their minds, what worry is there for you?

Please tell me why you fear a second referendum, if you want democracy.

I don't fear it. It won't happen.

 

[Baldseagull]

At the end of the day Cameron and the Remainers thought staying in was a cert, well it wasn't.

I never took it for granted, but many did and thought they could chuck a leave vote in to protest, I think even the most ardent Europhile would admit that there is a lot of things that could be better about the E.U., a narrow remain result would have been useful in getting those reforms.

 

[hans kraay fan club]

The difference is that with Remain it was pretty clear what you were voting for. On the other hand there was no Leave plan, so people voted Leave for all sorts of different reasons. Not having a plan was, of course, laughable, but it actually worked in the end, as people could imagine for themselves what Brexit might look like.

Exactly - as I've posted previously. The warped genius of the entire Leave campaign was to never crystalize what Brexit actually 'meant' - encouraging millions of people to instead vote for whatever they personally wanted it to mean.

 

[beorhthelm]

The difference is that with Remain it was pretty clear what you were voting for.

if you're voting on the current and future of EU, accepting all their directives and inevitable further integration for the next couple of decades, yes, its was clear. i suspect most remainder didn't think it through that far, accepting at most the status quo as being a price worth paying, without much analysis of what the cost really is, now or in the future. you see the debate on europe has never been black and white, clear cut issue, its a broad range of grey.

 

[GT49er]

If the result had been the other way, I would be expecting a second referendum to be sought by the Leave campaigners, and I expect they would get one eventually, not in this parliament but I am damn sure that another referendum would be an issue that would have come up in the next election. The difference with leaving is that we cannot just join up again in the next Parliament.

And just which parties do you think would be offering another referendum. Labour and Lib Dems? - not a chance, their official policy is very, very, very pro EU. The Tories only offered us a referendum because they didn't think for one moment that we'd actually vote to leave - that won't do that again!
As for UKIP (not that they're likely to win a General election with our first past the post system), leaving would be in their manifesto so they wouldn't need a referendum anyway.

 

[Baldseagull]

I don't fear it. It won't happen.

Probably not, but I suspect the reason you are happy about that is that Brexit is of more interest to you than actual democracy.

 

[East Preston Gull]

Absolutely there would be attempts made, and the narrow margin cited, to get greater control on immigration without leaving the E.U. if the result had gone the other way. We are not the only country with an issue on this subject and I am fairly sure some restrictions will be allowed in the future E.U., or some mechanism devised to discourage large amounts in one direction.

If the result had been the other way, I would be expecting a second referendum to be sought by the Leave campaigners, and I expect they would get one eventually, not in this parliament but I am damn sure that another referendum would be an issue that would have come up in the next election. The difference with leaving is that we cannot just join up again in the next Parliament.

The EU would not have changed if we had voted remain. It is a federalist mafia and will not change its one Union goals.

We are out and will forge ahead whilst the crippling EU stumbles along with low growth, low employment and stifling beauocracy.

As soon as the referendum was called, I studied every book on the subject I could and soon came to the conclusion that we would never join this lumbering project if we were asked to now. The EU has done nothing for any of its members, bar Poland. It stifles competition, it destroys nation states and it's parliaments and spends it's time and money on nonsense whilst southern Europe burns in Debt.

Out and proud☺

Sent from my E6653 using Tapatalk

 

[Baldseagull]

And just which parties do you think would be offering another referendum. Labour and Lib Dems? - not a chance, their official policy is very, very, very pro EU. The Tories only offered us a referendum because they didn't think for one moment that we'd actually vote to leave - that won't do that again!
As for UKIP (not that they're likely to win a General election with our first past the post system), leaving would be in their manifesto so they wouldn't need a referendum anyway.

None of the parties wanted to do it before, but Farage goaded first Blair into saying he would, even though he then did not, and Cameron in to saying it and doing it.

With a 48% leave vote, both Labour and Torys would be wanting to give those people something to hang on to, give themselves something to prod Brussels with and with Farage threatening to eat into their share of the vote in certain seats, neither would be able to rule it out at the very least. They would also know that more of the older generation voted leave, and it is the older generations that turn out more consistently in general elections.
Nailed on it would be in the manifesto of at least one of the main two, probably both, possibly even the Liberals too.

 

[Pintos]

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/...rom-arguing-with-brexit-fkwits-20160713110699

MILLIONS of Britons are physically exhausted after spending several weeks arguing with people who do not understand anything.
Many ‘remain’ voters feel they need a holiday or a long sleep after the tiring experience of trying to reason with people who completely reject logic or evidence.
Martin Bishop said: “Whenever I spoke to my uncle Trevor about Brexit he’d just make some fatuous comment like, ‘I suppose you wish the Germans had won the war, then!’
“It was incredibly knackering because he’d just respond to everything with random bullshit, like when he said the economy would be fine because we’d ‘just think of new products to sell’.”
Emma Bradford said: “I’m worn out from talking to Brexiters because a lot of them think listing everything that pisses them off is the same as a rational debate.
“Also they just ignore anything they don’t like. When I explained to my mum that the EU doesn’t make our laws her reasoned response was to go and water the geraniums.”
However Brexit supporter Norman Steele said: “I’ve had lots of well-informed, reasonable debates with Project Fear’s brainwashed sheeple who hate their country.”

 

[Baldseagull]

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/...rom-arguing-with-brexit-fkwits-20160713110699

MILLIONS of Britons are physically exhausted after spending several weeks arguing with people who do not understand anything.
Many ‘remain’ voters feel they need a holiday or a long sleep after the tiring experience of trying to reason with people who completely reject logic or evidence.
Martin Bishop said: “Whenever I spoke to my uncle Trevor about Brexit he’d just make some fatuous comment like, ‘I suppose you wish the Germans had won the war, then!’
“It was incredibly knackering because he’d just respond to everything with random bullshit, like when he said the economy would be fine because we’d ‘just think of new products to sell’.”
Emma Bradford said: “I’m worn out from talking to Brexiters because a lot of them think listing everything that pisses them off is the same as a rational debate.
“Also they just ignore anything they don’t like. When I explained to my mum that the EU doesn’t make our laws her reasoned response was to go and water the geraniums.”
However Brexit supporter Norman Steele said: “I’ve had lots of well-informed, reasonable debates with Project Fear’s brainwashed sheeple who hate their country.”

To be fair, it has been a bit more rational than that on here, but it is what I hear up the pub.