[Politics] Brexit

[CHAPPERS]

PMQs uncovers another LIE from the Leave campaign.

James Berry, a Conservative, asks for a reassurance that EU citizens in the UK have a secure future here.

Cameron says the first thing to do is to tell them their contribution is welcomed. He says at the moment all their rights are guaranteed. We are still members of the EU. He says the leave campaigners said EU nationals would be entitled to say. But the government is not in a position to offer a guarantee now, because the negotiations have not taken place.

Cameron says government is not in a position now to guarantee that EU nationals living in the EU will be unaffected after Brexit. But he said the leave campaign did promise this.

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

As far as I can see, the rationale is, we don't like what we have, looks difficult to fix, lets burn it and start again, we will have the foundations in place.

But what does the replacement really look like? It will look much like the old shit, just smaller.

The country has two years to debate what it will look like. We have had a constant diet of the mantra 'there are no choices because we are in the EU.' Now there will be negotiations with everything on the table. When you negotiate you don't show your hand at the outset. Who knows, the decision may at some point be overturned in a second referendum. I don't think that people on either side of this debate should be ignored and there will be plenty of opportunity for pro EU views to be heard. I think that the principle has been established though that the unskilled cannot be neglected any longer to pay for corporate profit and booming house prices in the south of England. I also think that our negotiators whoever they may be will take in a more optimistic mindset than yours !

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

My ballot paper asked me about whether to Leave or Remain in the EU. Where did you get one of those for voting out the corporate status quo?

We all had our reasons. Sovereignty, the wish for unlimited immigration, the wish for zero immigration, immigration somewhere in the middle, EU beaurocracy, the environment etc etc.
Mine happened to be the low wage economy caused by incentivising unskilled immigration. Pure economic argument motivated by the impact on workers. I understand the issues of Remain voters and agree with some of them but unlimited freedom of movement causes distortions in the regional economy if you happen to be a region. This is made worse by having two different currencies as the sterling economy is attracting unmanageablle levels of unskilled immigration.

 

[Hamilton]

Well actually i didn't that was somebody else but never mind that small attention to detail It means very little either way

Looks like you're getting tarred because of my comment.

The comment I made [MENTION=15777]c0lz[/MENTION] was that on average the UK tends to succeed in 97% of the legislation that it votes on. The claim made by the Leave camp that we lost 72 out of 72 appeals was correct, but out of context i.e. taking into account all of the other voting that happens in the EU, it was misleading.

To give balance, in this debate I also took Remain to task on the claim that every household would be £4,300 worse off. Whilst true as an average, it was misleading to suggest that every household would be affected equally. Some would suffer greater losses than others.

It's misleading claims like these (the £350m a week claim was another convenient misleading comment) that have poisoned the debate. But, the facts were all there. They have all been debunked by experts. However, the electorate wanted to ignore these explanations and voted on the perceived and real injustice i.e. we have failed to redistribute wealth, invest in the right infrastructure, create jobs, support those on low incomes etc. Unfortunately, this is all the responsibility of our UK Parliament, not the EU.

Hey ho, we've bitten our noses off. Smitten our faces. Better get on with it now.

I've just finished a great business meeting in Brussels with a new potential client. I reckon I can win the work, but I've realised that I'll probably need to employ a French consultant. The great thing is, I'll probably be able to do so as I very much doubt freedom of movement rules will change. It's what the markets are suddenly banking on. They are thinking that business will be protected by freedom of movement and access to the single market. The only stuff that will change for the UK will be EU regulations around stuff like climate change, security, and workers right. That's why they are all holding the breath. They'll also be hoping that London agrees to whatever measures are required to retain its status as the clearing house for EU trade - which I guess it could do so inside a single market. All things we're working out. Of course we would have known this in advance if the Leave campaign had had a PLAN.

All the while we can watch out for a post Brexit government to peel back workers rights, implement further austerity measures that cut redistribution of wealth to those in need further. What we should have been doing is demanding more of our MPs. They should have been building a fairer Britain, not the EU.

Anyhow, now I reckon we need a 5 year plan. Retain access to the single common market and protect freedom of movement. Years 1-2 establish confidence in the pound and complete projects like HS2 that will provide access to the Northern Powerhouse. Agree to the expansion of Manchester, Gatwick and Heathrow. Cut all corporate taxes for Pharmaceutical, Technology and R&D firms. Provide regional stimulus for firms investing in UK Plc off the back of such cuts. Freeze the living wage for 5 years. Years 3-5, invest in significant business parks in Wales, Scotland and Manchester - replicate some of the great work in this area that has been done in areas like Cambridge. Reintroduce working tax credits at 2008 levels and increase tax receipts across the board - high incomes especially, corporate and capital (especially the latter). And, I hate to say this, but I think we may have no choice - and this goes against all my principles - fast track privatisation of the NHS and Education - with a massive focus on the latter, attracting STEM businesses to drive that agenda.

This last paragraph is just me shooting from the hip, but I've heard sod all from either the Leave campaign members or the Remain campaign members on what the answer is now that we find ourselves where we are. Caveat to all this is my answer would have been different had we chosen to Remain, which should go without saying.

 

[The Fifth Column]

So you're perfectly content and happy but you voted specifically to piss people off even though you knew it would have an adverse effect on the country initially? Ok then.

And, yes, look at the areas that voted Leave and then think about who in those areas does the minimum wage jobs that abound there. Might it be the very people we've just "regained control" over? Although we should be alright for a while given that no actual changes to our immigration and border policy will be possible until around 2019 at the earliest, except for the fact that the French would be withiin their rights to abandon Sangatte the second we invoke Article 50.

What I actually voted for was to leave the European Union Parliament which I would like to see systematically dismantled, a profligate waste of money on a monumental scale, one that has to have 3 seats of power, one in Brussels, one in Strasbourg just to satisfy the French and another in Luxembourg, an organisation that ridiculously has to relocate from one location to the other on a regular basis which could save somewhere in the region of 115 million euros a year (small change compared to the 1.8 billion euros it cost to run in 2015!) . It is a monstrously expensive gravy train that has grown out of control and does not serve my interests or I believe those of Britain at all well. I'm happy to have an economic union with Europe, I'm happy for the freedom of movement to continue I just don't believe this overblown self serving organisation deserves to continue with British support. I voted to get rid of this:



and this:

 

[CHAPPERS]

I personally can't wait for the Dream Team of Stephen 'Homosexuality can be cured' Crabb and Sajid 'Ticket touting is entreprenuerial' Javid to be in charge.

 

[Guinness Boy]

What I actually voted for was to leave the European Union Parliament which I would like to see systematically dismantled, a profligate waste of money on a monumental scale, one that has to have 3 seats of power, one in Brussels, one in Strasbourg just to satisfy the French and another in Luxembourg, an organisation that ridiculously has to relocate from one location to the other on a regular basis which could save somewhere in the region of 115 million euros a year (small change compared to the 1.8 billion euros it cost to run in 2015!) . It is a monstrously expensive gravy train that has grown out of control and does not serve my interests or I believe those of Britain at all well. I'm happy to have an economic union with Europe, I'm happy for the freedom of movement to continue I just don't believe this overblown self serving organisation deserves to continue with British support. I voted to get rid of this:

View attachment 76190

and this:

View attachment 76191

Fair enough. You're probably one of the only Leave voters to know that you will get exactly what you wanted. Why an earth you couldn't have just said that without all the name calling and wealth shaming I have no idea.

 

[CHAPPERS]

So the EU have stated there must be freedom of movement for access to the single market.

This is going well.

 

[ManOfSussex]

Now I'll no longer be able to get a job at the European parliament as an elected MEP, how do I get into the House of Lords instead?

 

[Guinness Boy]

So the EU have stated there must be freedom of movement for access to the single market.

This is going well.

Was always going to be the case. That's exactly how it works in Norway. If we want single market access then we will be defacto members of the EEA - still no control over immigration but without having a say in European legislation (so the terms of the market we have access to could change without us being able to do anything). The alternative is slightly reduced net immigration with tarrifs and a weaker pound. You cannot have your cake and eat it. I think Farage once said that.

 

[Deleted member 22389]

So the EU have stated there must be freedom of movement for access to the single market.

This is going well.

I knew that would happen anyway, so where do we go from here? There will be no article 50, the only way they can get out of this is to run another referendum, which has happened in other countries.

You just got to look at Douglas Carswells tweets.
https://twitter.com/douglascarswell

 

[Billy the Fish]

I wonder how many people who voted to leave would also support reforms to the House of Lords and proper electoral reform?I know I would.

Sadly we haven't been offered a vote on the Lords and the vote on electoral reform was watered down to not include any form of proportional representation.

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

So the EU have stated there must be freedom of movement for access to the single market.

This is going well.

Negotiations haven't started as yet. The EU are doing exactly the right thing in stating their position prior to the talks. Lets reserve judgement until we see the final deal.

 

[East Preston Gull]

I wonder how many people who voted to leave would also support reforms to the House of Lords and proper electoral reform?I know I would.

Sadly we haven't been offered a vote on the Lords and the vote on electoral reform was watered down to not include any form of proportional representation.

This.

Sent from my E6653 using Tapatalk

 

[Guinness Boy]

Negotiations haven't started as yet. The EU are doing exactly the right thing in stating their position prior to the talks. Lets reserve judgement until we see the final deal.

Right. Let's just say for a minute we manage to get access to the market without freedom of movement, what do you think other countries are going to do? France would be next to go while Norway and Iceland would most likely leave the EEA. What would be the point in them staying when they can cherry pick the good bits?

 

[Simster]

Obviously I can understand why so many leavers are scared of another referendum, in the form of an endorsement of any negotiated deal - they'd be absolutely trounced now that facts are coming out, and some of the leavers have backtracked on their promises. No, £350m per week won't be going into the NHS. And no, leaving the EU will not make a blind bit of difference to immigration levels.

But I just wish they'd stop insisting anyone who wants this vote is "undemocratic". It really isn't. Firstly, this isn't a general election where we can boot out the wrong decision in 5 years time. Secondly, Farage himself was insisting this wasn't over if the result was close. Are we supposed to ignore that, now that it turns out the close result was the other way? Thirdly, we are a parliamentary democracy. There was clearly an assumption that a straight forward referendum would be respected, but this is ridiculously tight and would change our position FOREVER. Finally, the entire campaign on both sides has been built on lies and mis-truths rather than fact. That is why we have a parliamentary democracy.

I'd have thought that the simple solution is to allow senior pro-Brexit chiefs to do the negotiating, then they should be the ones to put their case to the electorate on their own terms. i.e. when they want, at a point they themselves are happy with the deal. If they can convince everyone that this is the way forward, now that we know what we're voting for, I think that really would put this sorry mess to bed.

 

[Machiavelli]

We all had our reasons. Sovereignty, the wish for unlimited immigration, the wish for zero immigration, immigration somewhere in the middle, EU beaurocracy, the environment etc etc.
Mine happened to be the low wage economy caused by incentivising unskilled immigration. Pure economic argument motivated by the impact on workers. I understand the issues of Remain voters and agree with some of them but unlimited freedom of movement causes distortions in the regional economy if you happen to be a region. This is made worse by having two different currencies as the sterling economy is attracting unmanageablle levels of unskilled immigration.

We did all have our reasons but you've indicated that you voted for a secondary reason rather than what was on the ballot paper. As much as I find it an attractive vision, I won't be holding my breath until it's implemented.

 

[Seagull58]

PMQs uncovers another LIE from the Leave campaign.

It wasn't a lie. It was their stated position prior to exit negotiations and, in fact, it can be offered whatever the exit negotiations turn out to be.

 

[The Fifth Column]

Fair enough. You're probably one of the only Leave voters to know that you will get exactly what you wanted. Why an earth you couldn't have just said that without all the name calling and wealth shaming I have no idea.

Name calling and wealth shaming, simply reacting to those with wealth (almost exclusively remain voters) constantly talking down to me and other leave voters like we are peasants and therefore not entitled to an opinion because theirs is far more important. I tend to agree with a lot of what the remain voters were saying but voted leave on the issue that was most important to me and am prepared to face the consequences of that however harsh they may be. Claude Juncker did more to convince me to vote leave with his sneering arrogant "we know best' attitude towards the British than those buffoons Johnson and Farage ever did.

 

[Alex Alex Dawson oo! oo!]

Was always going to be the case. That's exactly how it works in Norway. If we want single market access then we will be defacto members of the EEA - still no control over immigration but without having a say in European legislation (so the terms of the market we have access to could change without us being able to do anything). The alternative is slightly reduced net immigration with tarrifs and a weaker pound. You cannot have your cake and eat it. I think Farage once said that.

Quite so, it's all in the EU Treaties so it's law. And, like Norway, Iceland and Liechtenstein, we would have to implement any legislation relevant to the single market nationally.