[Politics] Brexit

[El Presidente]

It's hard to argue with a post that says GDP is down by £100bn per year and links a report saying that the total economy is down by £31bn. I lose track of which particular guess I'm supposed to be commenting on.

What I would like to see challenged is these people who are having to pay so much extra for paperwork. Some fish exporter on there says that he is having to pay over £100,000 per year extra admin to fill in forms. Bearing in mind that all EU exports had forms to fill in anyway (though the report does imply that within the EU, there was no paperwork at all and the idea of filling in forms is new), why the extra expense? I used to work for a company that exported to over 100 countries and the same computer worked for form-filling for both, and the non-EU wasn't noticeably more expensive than the EU. Why is the EU form filling so vastly more expensive than non-EU?

I work in higher education. We can no longer access grants and work collaboratively with other universities in the EU, and the Enactus scheme for students has gone (replaced by the ridiculously bureaucratic Turing scheme run by the clowns at C(r)apita that does not cover tuition fees. Alan Turing was chemically castrated in 1952, during another Conservative party administration, for the heinous crime of being gay.

So where are the Brexit benefits in this?

 

[dsr-burnley]

I work in higher education. We can no longer access grants and work collaboratively with other universities in the EU, and the Enactus scheme for students has gone (replaced by the ridiculously bureaucratic Turing scheme run by the clowns at C(r)apita that does not cover tuition fees. Alan Turing was chemically castrated in 1952, during another Conservative party administration, for the heinous crime of being gay.

So where are the Brexit benefits in this?

One benefit is that you know the name of the new scheme, the Turing scheme. The other one was the Erasmus scheme, and the Enactus scheme is something quite different.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

It's hard to argue with a post that says GDP is down by £100bn per year and links a report saying that the total economy is down by £31bn. I lose track of which particular guess I'm supposed to be commenting on.

What I would like to see challenged is these people who are having to pay so much extra for paperwork. Some fish exporter on there says that he is having to pay over £100,000 per year extra admin to fill in forms. Bearing in mind that all EU exports had forms to fill in anyway (though the report does imply that within the EU, there was no paperwork at all and the idea of filling in forms is new), why the extra expense? I used to work for a company that exported to over 100 countries and the same computer worked for form-filling for both, and the non-EU wasn't noticeably more expensive than the EU. Why is the EU form filling so vastly more expensive than non-EU?

'all EU exports had forms to fill in anyway' - this is simply not true. Controlled and/or hazardous items yes, every-day items i.e. the vast majority of items no.

Where is the extra cost? There was no customs border between the UK and the EU before. If you cannot understand why completing customs forms and delcarations, possibly having to liaise with customs officials, paying duty and/or admin changes, and the border delays (time is money) as opposed to previously having to do **** all then you are either willfully overlooking the burden or just plain stupid. Which is it?

 

[WATFORD zero]

It's hard to argue with a post that says GDP is down by £100bn per year and links a report saying that the total economy is down by £31bn. I lose track of which particular guess I'm supposed to be commenting on.

What I would like to see challenged is these people who are having to pay so much extra for paperwork. Some fish exporter on there says that he is having to pay over £100,000 per year extra admin to fill in forms. Bearing in mind that all EU exports had forms to fill in anyway (though the report does imply that within the EU, there was no paperwork at all and the idea of filling in forms is new), why the extra expense? I used to work for a company that exported to over 100 countries and the same computer worked for form-filling for both, and the non-EU wasn't noticeably more expensive than the EU. Why is the EU form filling so vastly more expensive than non-EU?

So you're defence is that losing £31B through an act of self harm is slightly less stupid than losing £100B through an act of self harm ?

Good point, well made

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

It's hard to argue with a post that says GDP is down by £100bn per year and links a report saying that the total economy is down by £31bn. I lose track of which particular guess I'm supposed to be commenting on.

What I would like to see challenged is these people who are having to pay so much extra for paperwork. Some fish exporter on there says that he is having to pay over £100,000 per year extra admin to fill in forms. Bearing in mind that all EU exports had forms to fill in anyway (though the report does imply that within the EU, there was no paperwork at all and the idea of filling in forms is new), why the extra expense? I used to work for a company that exported to over 100 countries and the same computer worked for form-filling for both, and the non-EU wasn't noticeably more expensive than the EU. Why is the EU form filling so vastly more expensive than non-EU?

Flipping your argument.....why dont you do the leg work and find someone who is exporting to the EU at no extra cost. Just one. That's all that's needed.

 

[dsr-burnley]

'all EU exports had forms to fill in anyway' - this is simply not true. Controlled and/or hazardous items yes, every-day items i.e. the vast majority of items no.

Where is the extra cost? There was no customs border between the UK and the EU before. If you cannot understand why completing customs forms and delcarations, possibly having to liaise with customs officials, paying duty and/or admin changes, and the border delays (time is money) as opposed to previously having to do **** all then you are either willfully overlooking the burden or just plain stupid. Which is it?

Do you genuinely believe that it was possible to export goods without filling in forms? All my clients that had to fill in VAT data? Product analysis data? Invoices with the customer's VAT reference number? Invoices? Delivery notes? There are oodles of paperwork related to every transaction, and even if there are more now than there were, they are all joined up together and most companies will have computers that can cope.

It may be of course that the paperwork involved in exporting to the EU is vastly more onerous than in exporting to the rest of the world. If so, why?

 

[dsr-burnley]

So you're defence is that losing £31B through an act of self harm is slightly less stupid than losing £100B through an act of self harm ?

Good point, well made

Those figures are about as reliable as a poll on this website as to whether Brighton should have had a penalty. The bias is immense.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Do you genuinely believe that it was possible to export goods without filling in forms? All my clients that had to fill in VAT data? Product analysis data? Invoices with the customer's VAT reference number? Invoices? Delivery notes? There are oodles of paperwork related to every transaction, and even if there are more now than there were, they are all joined up together and most companies will have computers that can cope.

It may be of course that the paperwork involved in exporting to the EU is vastly more onerous than in exporting to the rest of the world. If so, why?

What you have listed here, is basically the accounting side of business and you have to do this if even if you are a business sending stuff within the UK. I was talking about customs not VAT. But as you mention VAT even this has become more of a burden for many businesses outside of the EU. I am going to leave this here. Have a good day.

 

[El Presidente]

One benefit is that you know the name of the new scheme, the Turing scheme. The other one was the Erasmus scheme, and the Enactus scheme is something quite different.

Good point, well made.

So can you now advise me of how HE has benefited from Brexit?

 

[Pinkie Brown]

One benefit is that you know the name of the new scheme, the Turing scheme. The other one was the Erasmus scheme, and the Enactus scheme is something quite different.

Comparing Turing to Erasmus is ridiculous. Erasmus fully covered tuition fees. The Tory Turing doesn't and actually relies on foreign universities waiving their fees to Brit students. Why would and should they? Classic British entitlement to expect them to. Unless a student comes from a wealthy family where the Bank of Mum and Dad will sub them, they are screwed. Classic Tory philosophy. Culture War against anything European with students, especially those from poorer backgrounds, the victims. Turing stands isolated alone as way inferior than Erasmus and falls well short in general funding compared to Erasmus.

Turing is also managed by Capita. That should set alarm bells ringing straight away given their scandalous history.

 

[dsr-burnley]

Comparing Turing to Erasmus is ridiculous. Erasmus fully covered tuition fees. The Tory Turing doesn't and actually relies on foreign universities waiving their fees to Brit students. Why would and should they? Classic British entitlement to expect them to. Unless a student comes from a wealthy family where the Bank of Mum and Dad will sub them, they are screwed. Classic Tory philosophy. Culture War against anything European with students, especially those from poorer backgrounds, the victims. Turing stands isolated alone as way inferior than Erasmus and falls well short in general funding compared to Erasmus.

Turing is also managed by Capita. That should set alarm bells ringing straight away given their scandalous history.

How about the Scots? They used to offer free tuition to all EU students (apart from English ones, of course) and they unilaterally scrapped it. How's that for a culture war.

 

[El Presidente]

How about the Scots? They used to offer free tuition to all EU students (apart from English ones, of course) and they unilaterally scrapped it. How's that for a culture war.

But you are going down the Whatabouttery route.

If Brexit is so good, simply tell me the advantages it has created in higher education.

 

[dsr-burnley]

I suspect most of the many problems in higher education are of our own making, not EU generated and would be neither caused nor cured by EU membership or non-membership. The absurd money-grubbing chasing of students at the less popular universites being a case in point. And the universities that still do online lecturing rather than face to face might as well shut up shop. But there is no reason at all why universities can't co-operate across international lines regardless of EU membership.

The EU strop about the Horizon programme might damage mutual relations, but that's not a fault of Brexit because you don't need to be in the EU to join.

But Brexit wasn't supposed to create advantages in higher education, was it? I thought Brexit was all about the money?

 

[El Presidente]

. But there is no reason at all why universities can't co-operate across international lines regardless of EU membership.

There is when it comes to funding from EU grants.

 

[WATFORD zero]

I suspect most of the many problems in higher education are of our own making, not EU generated and would be neither caused nor cured by EU membership or non-membership. The absurd money-grubbing chasing of students at the less popular universites being a case in point. And the universities that still do online lecturing rather than face to face might as well shut up shop. But there is no reason at all why universities can't co-operate across international lines regardless of EU membership.

The EU strop about the Horizon programme might damage mutual relations, but that's not a fault of Brexit because you don't need to be in the EU to join.

But Brexit wasn't supposed to create advantages in higher education, was it? I thought Brexit was all about the money?

In a thread that, even by NSC standards, has managed to plummet to levels of buffoonery very rarely seen, you asking in September 2022 what Brexit was meant to be about, is right down there as a contender

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

But there is no reason at all why universities can't co-operate across international lines regardless of EU membership.

I nearly always get the desire to shoot myself in the head when I follow your posts.

 

[dsr-burnley]

In a thread that, even by NSC standards, has managed to plummet to levels of buffoonery very rarely seen, you asking in September 2022 what Brexit was meant to be about, is right down there as a contender

It's a rhetorical question. Sorry to be too oblique. To put it more simply, virtually all the posts about Brexit on this message board are talking about money, money, money. Nothing else (at least re. Brexit) has been important at all, just money. It's a money obsession. My rhetorical question was expressing surprise that someone had raised a Brexit issue that wasn't about money, though of course later posts proved that it was a money-money-money issue after all.

 

[El Presidente]

It's a rhetorical question. Sorry to be too oblique. To put it more simply, virtually all the posts about Brexit on this message board are talking about money, money, money. Nothing else (at least re. Brexit) has been important at all, just money. It's a money obsession. My rhetorical question was expressing surprise that someone had raised a Brexit issue that wasn't about money, though of course later posts proved that it was a money-money-money issue after all.

Fair enough, you confirm the view that Brexit is bad economically for the UK, so what are the non economic benefits that outweigh the economic costs?

 

[Thunder Bolt]

It's a rhetorical question. Sorry to be too oblique. To put it more simply, virtually all the posts about Brexit on this message board are talking about money, money, money. Nothing else (at least re. Brexit) has been important at all, just money. It's a money obsession. My rhetorical question was expressing surprise that someone had raised a Brexit issue that wasn't about money, though of course later posts proved that it was a money-money-money issue after all.

Money makes the world go round, haven’t you heard?

It’s ok being blasé about money when you have enough but for a majority of people who live hand to mouth, it is an everyday worry.
Inflation, fuel prices which affect food prices and energy prices.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Money makes the world go round, haven’t you heard?

It’s ok being blasé about money when you have enough but for a majority of people who live hand to mouth, it is an everyday worry.
Inflation, fuel prices which affect food prices and energy prices.

Just to add, I know Brexit isn’t the sole cause of these problems but contribute to them.

Employment rights are about to go down the Swanny which is a direct cause of being in the EU.