[Politics] Brexit

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Imagine you want a playground for the kids in your local community, so that they have something to do if their phones, tablets, VR helmets and benzodiazepines are unavailable for some reason.

Anywhere between one million years ago and 500 years ago, you either just build it or go ask your village elder "hi I want to build ze playground and you can agree or die." The village elder says yes, you collect the material and you build the playground in one week or so and the kids play.

Go back a 100 years ago or a little more, you can still do it but in some instances you might want to ask your local council first. Or the king/queen. Most likely any of these would say "yes go do whatever the **** you want as long as you stay peaceful and pay your taxes". You might do it or there might be some local building firm who'd do it according to your instructions. In that case it might take a month or something. The kids play.

Jump forward to today. You a playground. You manage to get 1000 or 10 000 or so people to sign a list where they say "we want a playground on in the western part of the eastern parts of South Northshire". Local council debates it for a year, come to the conclusion that "yes we got enough money from the government to be able to do this".

But first they need to to do archeological digging to see if someone farted there 2000 years ago, maybe change some zoning stuff, maybe measure if the laughters from the playground would distburb the people living 500 meters away. After ten years or so, if you are lucky, you might get your playground. Will the playground be how you want it to be? No. It needs to be designed by some playground expert who knows how to follow the 10 000 safety regulations, and it will be built by Global Playgrounds Inc., some American company based in Cayman Islands who employs Latvian slaves to construct your playground with materials stolen in Africa. You get your playground. But it took ten years and is it really yours?

There are a lot of pro-EU, pro-standardisation, pro-regulate-everything-except-business, pro-state power people who cant fathom why this development is making people seriously starved for any type of power or influence in their own lives. "Why u no want your life decided in Washington, Brussels or London..? They good."

But as long as the powers that be dont crush these independence movements with force or some other way, they are going to grow. And the those who are pro-supranationalism - more power to the FN/EU/WHO/IMF/whatever - could either stand by the sideline and watch the independence movements grow while saying "why u so mad and weird?" or they could join in and try to find the best ways of giving back power to the people in a peaceful and thought through manner, because as it stands, they are going to find themselves very lonely on the sidelines in the not to distant future. People dont necessarily want "break-ups", they want some control over their lives/communities.

I agree with a lot of that. But 'we' have found we are more successful, safer, healthier, 'richer' when we club together on a large scale. Yes, I accept there is a point where large becomes inefficient, and I suspect the EU is close to that point. However there is a sweet spot. It isn't where everything is run locally.....

The Faversham grid, run by the wind farm on the marsh. We have electricity sometimes 4 hours in a single day!
The Faversham fish shop. Unfortunately no fish now the creek is polluted with the excrement of the good people of Faversham after we lost the skills and spare parts needed keep the sewage plant running.
The Faversham brick works. This was reinstituted after independence, but we don't know how to maintain it. In any case, since war was declared with Sittingbourne (hi [MENTION=33649]darkwolf666[/MENTION]) it has been too dangerous to venture too far from town.
Malaria is back; but after all the original town name was Feversham for a reason.
But my days are full; forraging, mending my threadbare clothes, praying (yes, god is back) for deliverance.
And 3 of my 8 children are still alive! Small mercies.

You can get too local. Big infrastructure can be exploited by the psychopaths (Hi Donald) but even back in the days of the village there was a bully, an idiot, a drunk, etc. I realised we were on a sticky wicket when the 'Health and Safety' industry invented itself in the late 1980s. But eventually, if a significant number of people start thinking like you and retreating into their very specific world, largely alone, every nation will have a minister for 'not ****ing about' to get things moving again.

In the meatime, I'm sure my son can wait a few weeks till stocks of Playstation 5 are replenished, and the missus will have to keep a better eye on the sell by date of her Peruvian raspberries after the last debacle. And hostilities with Sittingbourne will remain at the single raised eyebrow level.

 

[Chicken Run]

The break up of the UK.

For sure. Tho I suspect the harsh economic realities of the thing might lead to that particular policy being quietly dropped

It’s an interesting one as well as the ship repair and building industry in Rosyth which employs a large amount of the local community there!

Edit both communities served by SNP MP’s
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[Neville's Breakfast]

I notice you have given the pejorative misogyny of a left wing politician a free pass.

I didn’t comment on anything in the OP
Just commented that it will be a Tory/Brexit thread. I was right

 

[Lenny Rider]

Oh good, another Brexit and Tory bashing thread

Sorry Nev I thought it was a legitimate question?

 

[WATFORD zero]

I wonder whether the same people on here who can't see the EU lasting another 10 years are the same people who couldn't see the EU lasting another 10 years during the referendum campaign 5 years ago

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

Sorry Nev I thought it was a legitimate question?

It is, sorry

 

[Baker lite]

Sorry Nev I thought it was a legitimate question?

It very much is a legitimate question, I think Nevs response was to the usual nation loathing woopsys piling in.
For what it’s worth,I don’t believe there will be another ‘once in a lifetime referendum on Scottish independence.’ I also hope that if there is The the jocks will,again vote to stay in the Union.


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[Dick Swiveller]

I didn’t comment on anything in the OP
Just commented that it will be a Tory/Brexit thread. I was right

I wasn't talking about the OP. The thread has been derailed by loons on both sides - as always. And as far as I am aware, dogs cannot hold political office.

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

I wasn't talking about the OP. The thread has been derailed by loons on both sides - as always. And as far as I am aware, dogs cannot hold political office.

Sorry, I hadn’t read on from the first post. No free pass here. It’s why I prefer the football threads although I can’t always resist the temptation on the political threads and post on them more than I should.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

He's been on my ignore list for months, he has nothing to contribute except hate and division.

And rumour has it he has a second account which he uses to post ingratiating but rather stupid comments and hapless 'jokes', reserving the other for his bile

I have a suspicion one of the Mods is a sociology lecturer, conducting an experiment on the toleration of people by other people who are very different from them, as a 'model' of society. There are a small number of wankers, of course, and they are increasingly ignored by the rest of us, and some are eventually banished from NSC.

We also have a degree of devolution now on NSC, with the separate Covid portal, and the Bear Pit, the latter is a bit like an old school secondary modern or, more accurately, an 'approved school'.

Yes, the more I think about it, we are all being watched, measured, sifted, counted and graded. But why?

 

[Sorrel]

I'm not convinced the break up is as imminent as sometimes it is reported, though I would definitely say that longer term that is the way things are moving.

To look at a similar movement, Quebec had two independence referendums - with the one in 1995 won by the "No" side by 50.6% - so very close - but that seems to have been the end of the question for now. I could imagine a similar result in Scotland ending the movement for many years.

Northern Ireland - in the the current Brexit position - has many advantages that it would lose if it were part of the Republic, being part in and out of the EU and the UK, but with Britain paying for things. For this reason, I wouldn't be surprised if a movement to continue the status quo gained popularity. If the UK were back in the EU, however, I don't see Northern Ireland lasting in the UK.

The EU makes sense as a strong central government with an army and a foreign policy and then lots of smaller regions. There could be an independent Scotland as one of these - with Scotland as part of a larger union it has not much say in, which I suspect many people there would prefer to being in the union with us where they have more say, but seem to feel their lack of power more. I think an offer from the EU to say they will quickly admit Scotland would spur on a "Yes" vote, especially if it was suggested that they would somehow help economically (even if that wasn't actually true (c.f. Greece)). Not sure that Spain would allow that, though.

However, the Sunday Times survey figures show the region that thinks Scotland least likely to be independent in ten years is Scotland itself (30% think not versus 19% in England). This suggests that in England we are seeing only the "Yes" voices, while in Scotland there is a more balanced set of views - and that we might be overstating the strength of feeling for independence by thinking those who are loudest are more numerous that they are. I'm not yet convinced it's a foregone conclusion.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

The bizarre thing with the Scots is that many have always wanted more decision making for Scotland made in Scotland - hence devolution and ever more power handed over from London - and rightly so IMHO. Yet if they go independent they will attempt to join the EU ?

Is the concept of Scotland wanting to decide for themselves whether they are in or out of the EU really that difficult to grasp?

 

[Baker lite]

Is the concept of Scotland wanting to decide for themselves whether they are in or out of the EU really that difficult to grasp?

Will there be an EU to join, now that the UK has left the axis and taken our cash point card with us? I’ll have a sportspersons bet there will be no EU in 10 years.


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[RossyG]

Is the concept of Scotland wanting to decide for themselves whether they are in or out of the EU really that difficult to grasp?

They say it in the same breath as their insistence that they want Scotland to be its own country, which makes no sense.

It’s like an 18-year-old saying they want to be free and independent and stand on their own two feet by leaving dad’ and stepmum’s house and going to live in mum’ and stepdad’s house instead.

 

[PILTDOWN MAN]

Yes, extraordinary, from the Conservative and Unionist party. It can mean only one thing. Incompetance; surely the tories wouldn't be so venal as to jettison Scotland, where until recently, the nation returned 50+ labour MPs?

That said I think Blair lit the fuse by allowing devolution, albeit I'm not sure what option he had.

I find it sad that, although the blue wall of sounthern tory seats count for nothing when labour is in power, and the red wall of northern and urban labour seats count for nothing when the tories are in power, folk seem now unwilling to accept this, and favour the break up of the UK (and who knows what after - 'north' 'south' separation?).

To return to the OP's question, break up of the UK would benefit England. The jocks would suffer but, rather like the extreme end of our Brexiters, would regard this as a price worth paying. The Welsh would suffer (and I suspect would not vote to split). The Ulstermen can sod off, since they have been soaking the British taxpayer for decades, just to prop up their 18th century sectarianism. None of the newly liberated nations would be allowed back into the EU 'just like that' so we could have open borders with the jocks while they stew in their own juices.

You're right. The Scots would over night descend into almost the worse economy within the European continent. Low productivity, huge debt (as they would have a very large divorce bill and their proportion of national debt) a failing health service, poor education and little prospects of entering euroland in any quick way. Then they would subjected to the remaining self interested power houses Germany and France. The Welsh principality is an odd one as it's really two areas North and South and they have a bigger divide than England. Their health service is even worse than the Scots and as for balancing the books, not sure what they produce. NI can just go, I've got zero interest in religion and growing up during the troubles I have very little sympathy.

 

[GT49er]

I initially thought that but isn’t one of the policies of the SNP to rid the country of Nuclear Weapons?

For sure. Tho I suspect the harsh economic realities of the thing might lead to that particular policy being quietly dropped

I'm sure Wee Krankie will be quick to point out that the policy was only ever to rid the country of their nuclear weapons! Any that remain can be blamed on the English.

 

[WATFORD zero]

This report says the the DIT (Department for International Trade) are advising companies to set up EU operations if they want to export goods to the EU ?

UK firms 'told' to move to EU to avoid Brexit costs

UK businesses that export to the European Union (EU) are being told to set up separate firms inside the bloc to avert extra charges, paperwork and taxes resulting from Brexit.

According to the Observer, UK small businesses are being encouraged by advisers working for the Department for International Trade (DIT) to register new firms within the EU single market, from where they can distribute their goods more freely and avoid border problems and VAT issues.

https://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/brexit-uk-businesses-move-to-eu-to-avoid-extra-costs-trade-economy-101456064.html

I really can't believe this is right. Surely there is a way of efficiently exporting to the EU under the new Brexit deal without having to move businesses and jobs to the EU. That would be absolutely ridiculous

 

[Chicken Run]

I'm sure Wee Krankie will be quick to point out that the policy was only ever to rid the country of their nuclear weapons! Any that remain can be blamed on the English.

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[GT49er]

It's always been a bit of an awkward line for the SNP to toe, take back control (from London) but hand back control (to Brussels)

It panders perfectly to the Scots' 'ABE' mentality.

 

[stewart_weir]

Always inevitable that leaving the EU would create firm foundations for Scotland and potentially N Ireland to break away. History says that both Scotland and especially N Ireland has no reason to be part of the UK. Certainly NI historically was never 'British'. Good luck to them both I say.