[Politics] Brexit

[pastafarian]

Worth the gamble then, do you reckon?



Not for me, personally, I know the EU is far from perfect, and I'm not keen on the lack of democracy etc, but, it should be about the economy, and quite honestly, I don't think a leap into the dark would be very sensible, at the moment.

But with respect,there is a whole package to consider.
you are not happy about the democracy aspect,for some this is the most important.
others its immigration
others its security
for some the environment is paramount and many in this area feel we are best to remain.
for some its solely the economy

it really shouldnt be all about simply one thing,but i understand some people are more passionate about some matters over others

 

[lawros left foot]

But with respect,there is a whole package to consider.
you are not happy about the democracy aspect,for some this is the most important.
others its immigration
others its security
for some the environment is paramount and many in this area feel we are best to remain.
for some its solely the economy

it really shouldnt be all about simply one thing,but i understand some people are more passionate about some matters over others

You're right, and on balance, I feel we would be better of in. If I was younger, had a couple of young kids, a mortgage, the usual debt, and a job that I wasn't excactly in love with, there is no way I would pack in the job, with nothing else lined up, just to be free, and that is what I feel the outers want the country to do.
Call me boring, but I can live without that excitement.

 

[Irish_Seagull]

If the EU Referendum was today.

Obama has been clear, the USA more or less demands the UK is in the UK. Fair enough. Vote IN

I would love david Cameron to go to the USA and demand that it join into an unequal union with the rest of the Americas and have open borders with Mexico that they have Cubans decide where American tax payers money be spent with Bolivians write laws that decide how it's industry be run.

Americans are not known for their logic but they would tell the guy where to go regardless of where they lay on a political compass

I am aware that the leaders of al Qaeda and ISIS are also demanding that "the British dogs" vote to stay within the "EU" as they too love these open borders and the ability to operate freely

It serves the interests of Obama et al that the UK be in the EU as the uk helps moderate the block in a favourable way with regard to Americas wars, foreign occupations and insurgencies/insurrections etc etc.

 

[pastafarian]

You're right, and on balance, I feel we would be better of in. If I was younger, had a couple of young kids, a mortgage, the usual debt, and a job that I wasn't excactly in love with, there is no way I would pack in the job, with nothing else lined up, just to be free, and that is what I feel the outers want the country to do.
Call me boring, but I can live without that excitement.

And on balance im OUT
and there it is.

and nowadays i wouldnt recommend anyone leaves a job without something else lined up first and this is not what the outers are recommending

 

[Irish_Seagull]

Oh dear, i did think it was a bit harsh you being labelled a bit "dim", even after the last few days of your posts (a change from your banal threads you start) but unfortunately these other posters have a good case.

Hitler wanted to unite Europe too?

 

[Captain Sensible]

As we have got so many economic"experts" on here in the Remain camp,I thought I would humbly ask their opinions on a bet before I go down the bookies:-View attachment 73893

Which of the countries is a sure-fire banker to go bust first?Or should I go for a rank outsider,like the Volkswagen compensation deal tipping Merkinland over the edge?
Waiting for any sensible replies,but not holding my breath!

This actually doesn't really matter. A bit like if you stand 10 drunks up against each other they'll all take the weight and not fall over. The hard fact for those that want out is you can come up with bad forecasts and poor results in the Eurozone, but it is just too big to fail! It ticks over and has such huge huge economic significance that it just won't fall apart like Brexiters would like. The EU has many faults but a Brexit clearly would be a disaster, but if some don't already realise that by now, they are idiots. So it comes down to risk. Risk V Reward. How much do you want to leave, so as to risk getting recession, job losses and more austerity in exchange? For me it's not worth it. EU free movement will most likely still be in effect and we'd have a worse credit rating, more national debt, recession, job losses and higher taxes. But at least we could get our own fantastic law system back. Oh wait, no we couldn't get that either if we then had to go to the EU asking to trade freely. We are being played in a Tory tug of war, after efforts to keep out Farage succeeded in the Election.

 

[GT49er]

This actually doesn't really matter. A bit like if you stand 10 drinks up against each other they'll all take the weight and not fall over. The hard fact for those that want out is you can come up with bad forecasts and poor results in the Eurozone, but it is just too big to fail! It ticks over and has such huge huge economic significance that it just won't fall apart like Brexiters would like. The EU has many faults but a Brexit clearly would be a disaster, but if some don't already realise that by now, they are idiots. So it comes down to risk. Risk V Reward. How much do you want to leave, so as to risk getting recession, job losses and more austerity in exchange? For me it's not worth it. EU free movement will most likely still be in effect and we'd have a worse credit rating, more national debt, recession, job losses and higher taxes. But at least we could get our own fantastic law system back. Oh wait, no we could t get that either if we then had to go to the EU asking to trade freely. we are being played in a Tory tug of war, after efforts to keep out Farage succeeded in the Election.

"Just too big to fail".

Like the Roman Empire?
The Titanic?
The Hindenburg?
The Soviet Union?

 

[lawros left foot]

"I do wish they would stop running the country down"...........this in a nutshell. This country can not be that bad, seems people from other countries are desperate to come here....seems other countries are willing to invest here if the utilities companies are anything to go by.......seems the banks from all over the world love London.......seems our NHS is used by all and sundry.
Best to just run down anybody that talks the nation up, can not have that, no siree....you know what you are if you talk the country up......you are a insert the usual words

My vision of Britain in Twenty years time
Since we left the EU, the pound has crashed every two years, the writing was on the wall when thedecision to have a referendum was announced and it dropped 5% in a week.
The City of London financial centre has moved away to Germany with only Barclays, left of the big banks, and they pull out next year.Scotland voted for independence, and re-joined the EU last year, and Wales are now pressing for their own vote, as they voted to stay in the EU, but, obviously had to leave. The much promised trade deals with China has fallen through after Brussels exerted pressure on Bejing, and America is still negotiating with us, these things take their time.


We don't have mass immigration anymore though, in fact all our best, and brightest now leave as soon as they can, as jobs are really hard to come by, after many of the multi nationals pulled out. We still have a large basecof low skilled, low payed jobs,mainly like Singapore and China did back in the Seventies and Eighties, as all our major industry had gone to thre wall before Brexit, and what remained went soon after.
The NHS, has become privatised, with very few Doctors and Nurses now, as we sent a lot of the staff out of the country,and a lot more, either returned home,or went abroad, not entirely Brexits fault, but it didnt help. Our armed forces are now a home defence force only, at least we don't have our boys being killed in foriegn wars anymore, so thats a good thing. We will enter the 25 th year of Tory rule soon, we're more or less a one party state now, as losing the Scottish vote decimated Labour, and the Liberals are still sulking over Trident, and why on earth we still have it, as it didnt stop the riots last summer.
It's not all bad news though, The Albion have just won their third successive European Cup, and England held onto the World Cup again, shame we can't afford to hold the tournament here though

 

[Captain Sensible]

"Just too big to fail".

Like the Roman Empire?
The Titanic?
The Hindenburg?
The Soviet Union?

Economically the EU is a giant! When commodities hit a low, the investment is in the Greenback and the Euro. Why after all the bad results and forecast in the Euro zone has it clawed back around 1500 pips on Sterling? Even though growth is stagnant, it's still ticking over vast somes of money that in turn, make itself and the rest of the world money. You don't have to continually be growing to be a massive player in the world. I find the arrogance of Brexiters quite alarming. The U.K. Is a significant small player but still small.

 

[pastafarian]

This actually doesn't really matter. A bit like if you stand 10 drunks up against each other they'll all take the weight and not fall over. The hard fact for those that want out is you can come up with bad forecasts and poor results in the Eurozone, but it is just too big to fail! It ticks over and has such huge huge economic significance that it just won't fall apart like Brexiters would like. The EU has many faults but a Brexit clearly would be a disaster, but if some don't already realise that by now, they are idiots. So it comes down to risk. Risk V Reward. How much do you want to leave, so as to risk getting recession, job losses and more austerity in exchange? For me it's not worth it. EU free movement will most likely still be in effect and we'd have a worse credit rating, more national debt, recession, job losses and higher taxes. But at least we could get our own fantastic law system back. Oh wait, no we couldn't get that either if we then had to go to the EU asking to trade freely. We are being played in a Tory tug of war, after efforts to keep out Farage succeeded in the Election.

remind me again of all the sovereign laws Canada negotiated away with CETA and all the sovereign laws The US are just about to give up with TTIP. Have they also signed up to EU style free movement with these Free Trade Agreements?
And probably best to have a chat with the Greeks when it comes to having austerity thrust down your throat as the price for remaining IN

 

[Captain Sensible]

remind me again of all the sovereign laws Canada negotiated away with CETA and all the sovereign laws The US are just about to give up with TTIP. Have they also signed up to EU style free movement with these Free Trade Agreements?
And probably best to have a chat with the Greeks when it comes to having austerity thrust down your throat as the price for remaining IN

Here we go again, pinning everything on Canada. Which if you read up on is not a free trade treaty at all. What makes you think EU namely France and Germany are going to allow the UK to exit and with a deal that has its cake and eats it? ie, better than their own? By definition of the Lisbon treaty, the EU sets the terms of any free trade agreements with exiting nations. Not the other way around.

 

[pastafarian]

My vision of Britain in Twenty years time
Since we left the EU, the pound has crashed every two years, the writing was on the wall when thedecision to have a referendum was announced and it dropped 5% in a week.
The City of London financial centre has moved away to Germany with only Barclays, left of the big banks, and they pull out next year.Scotland voted for independence, and re-joined the EU last year, and Wales are now pressing for their own vote, as they voted to stay in the EU, but, obviously had to leave. The much promised trade deals with China has fallen through after Brussels exerted pressure on Bejing, and America is still negotiating with us, these things take their time.


We don't have mass immigration anymore though, in fact all our best, and brightest now leave as soon as they can, as jobs are really hard to come by, after many of the multi nationals pulled out. We still have a large basecof low skilled, low payed jobs,mainly like Singapore and China did back in the Seventies and Eighties, as all our major industry had gone to thre wall before Brexit, and what remained went soon after.
The NHS, has become privatised, with very few Doctors and Nurses now, as we sent a lot of the staff out of the country,and a lot more, either returned home,or went abroad, not entirely Brexits fault, but it didnt help. Our armed forces are now a home defence force only, at least we don't have our boys being killed in foriegn wars anymore, so thats a good thing. We will enter the 25 th year of Tory rule soon, we're more or less a one party state now, as losing the Scottish vote decimated Labour, and the Liberals are still sulking over Trident, and why on earth we still have it, as it didnt stop the riots last summer.
It's not all bad news though, The Albion have just won their third successive European Cup, and England held onto the World Cup again, shame we can't afford to hold the tournament here though

Im fairly sure this falls quite spectacularly into the scaremongering category
why only three European Cups?

on the plus side at least they have abandoned that stupid champions league and gone back to the much more interesting and exciting knock out competition for winners only.

 

[pastafarian]

Here we go again, pinning everything on Canada. Which if you read up on is not a free trade treaty at all. What makes you think EU namely France and Germany are going to allow the UK to exit and with a deal that has its cake and eats it? ie, better than their own? By definition of the Lisbon treaty, the EU sets the terms of any free trade agreements with exiting nations. Not the other way around.

Not pinning everything at all on Canada,just giving an example of options.

If our own gov and commons library regard CETA as a Free Trade Agreement (FTA) thats good enough for me

"This note provides details about CETA, the Comprehensive Trade and Economic Partnership. This is a free trade agreement between the EU and Canada."

http://researchbriefings.parliament.uk/ResearchBriefing/Summary/CBP-7492

 

[Irish_Seagull]

This actually doesn't really matter. A bit like if you stand 10 drunks up against each other they'll all take the weight and not fall over. The hard fact for those that want out is you can come up with bad forecasts and poor results in the Eurozone, but it is just too big to fail!

Who told you this, and why do you Believe it

It ticks over and has such huge huge economic significance that it just won't fall apart like Brexiters would like.

This kind of reminds me of the titanic, the unsinkable ship

So it comes down to risk. Risk V Reward. How much do you want to leave, so as to risk getting recession, job losses and more austerity in exchange?

Hilarious, fear factor nonsense. It's like a script written by a team in some Nigerian Internet scam cafe

more national debt, recession, job losses and higher taxes.

Every year the debt the state owes its creditors increases, it promised to pay the failed banks back also to a tune of every penny it gave them plus interest

Debt is what the uk economy survives on.

The EU has already drawn up proposals which will have uk taxpayers liable for the National debts of its failed currency

It would be far more sensible to simply shake up the banking system and its relationship with the state

But at least we could get our own fantastic law system back. Oh wait, no we couldn't We are being played in a Tory tug of war, after efforts to keep out Farage succeeded in the Election.

 

[pastafarian]

Here we go again, pinning everything on Canada. .

oh and nicely dodged
perhaps you can try again

which sovereign laws have Canada and The US signed away to the EU like we would have to do just to trade with the EU after a brexit.
have they both also signed up to the EU style free movement,like we have no option apparently but to agree with just for trading with the EU.

 

[cunning fergus]

The bulk of our immigrant population comes from Commonwealth countries, and Pakistan. Whether we were in or out of Europe this immigration would not have changed. Most of the new immigration is Eastern European, who are, for the main part Roman Catholic, or orthodox Christian, so, I don't really understand how European immigration can be blamed for two Muslim nutcases plotting to kill people.

That's not the point as you well know.

You prediction that there will be no material Muslim population growth in this country merely echo the murmurings of our political classes that we have nothing to fear from immigration.

The reality on the ground of course is the country is going through an unprecedented transition to a destination that is unknown. No one would have predicted that some British people born in this country would hold murderous intent to their fellow citizens on the scale we see today, so I will treat your view that we have nothing to worry about with the contempt it deserves given the evidence.

Being attached to an institution that equally demands free movement of European citizens across 28 states whilst some of those states can dish out European citizenship to any Tom Dick or Mehmet is not going to help either.

We are in truly unknown territory.

 

[cunning fergus]

Economically the EU is a giant! When commodities hit a low, the investment is in the Greenback and the Euro. Why after all the bad results and forecast in the Euro zone has it clawed back around 1500 pips on Sterling? Even though growth is stagnant, it's still ticking over vast somes of money that in turn, make itself and the rest of the world money. You don't have to continually be growing to be a massive player in the world. I find the arrogance of Brexiters quite alarming. The U.K. Is a significant small player but still small.

Economically the EU and the euro is only as strong as its weakest part.

We have seen where this is, and if you are predicting sunlit uplands for the EU and the euro then you are in a state of monumental denial.

The EU has consistently broken its own rules to implement the currency and keep it on life support.

The programme of QE is a case in point and given how much is taking place it is more concerning that growth levels are as bad as they are. In contrast the QE programmes in the US and UK were more successful, however even that view should be considered in the short term as there is very little else central Govts can do........negative interest rates as per Japan and Sweden are the next likely step. These are not signs of a healthy balanced economy.

This environment needs to be considered against the wider context of deep structural weaknesses in the euro and the likely insurmountable political challenges of the Eurozone to pool fiscal sovereignty.

No doubt there are economists and otherwise that will talk the euro up, however that is because there is not a plan B.

They have no choice............

 

[skipper734]

Trade deal with the septics, pah. China and India is where it's at, and we are already well on the way. ( The Yanks don't like it.)

 

[Captain Sensible]

Who told you this, and why do you Believe it




This kind of reminds me of the titanic, the unsinkable ship




Hilarious, fear factor nonsense. It's like a script written by a team in some Nigerian Internet scam cafe



Every year the debt the state owes its creditors increases, it promised to pay the failed banks back also to a tune of every penny it gave them plus interest

Debt is what the uk economy survives on.

The EU has already drawn up proposals which will have uk taxpayers liable for the National debts of its failed currency

It would be far more sensible to simply shake up the banking system and its relationship with the state

Your naivety is reflected by so many that believe the Brexit hype. Put simply the cash to be made from the EU is enormous. No matter how many PIG or Italian economies are on the brink of collapse. The Eurozone carries on and is still somewhere where a huge amount of trade is successfully amassed in billions. Crossing your fingers that one day it will collapse, to prove yourself you voted the right way, will be a long drawn out affair.

 

[Lincoln Imp]

"I do wish they would stop running the country down"...........this in a nutshell. This country can not be that bad, seems people from other countries are desperate to come here....seems other countries are willing to invest here if the utilities companies are anything to go by.......seems the banks from all over the world love London.......seems our NHS is used by all and sundry.
Best to just run down anybody that talks the nation up, can not have that, no siree....you know what you are if you talk the country up......you are a insert the usual words

Can you just tell me what the 'usual words' referred to are? You leave the impression that one of them is 'racist'. It's just that the claim that Inners call Brexiters racists seems like an urban myth to me. It may happen from time to time, along with the (more frequent I'd say) verbal excesses from Brexiters (aimed at the twats and traitors who disagree with them) but I genuinely can't recall an Inner making a charge of racism on here. I may be wrong. There are occasional references to race in the wider debate - the Boris/Farage explanation for Obama's view on UK membership might touch on it and one prominent Out poster on here was recently and inexplicably pointing the finger at the EU for the fate of 'white people' but is race really an issue here? I don't think it is. It certainly shouldn't be.