[Politics] Brexit

[Hugo Rune]

May well be a short day after all, if the Letwin amendment is passed the Tories are going to pull the vote

Your not going to get your beloved Bojo Brexit confirmed to day then? Best concentrate on the football!

 

[abc]

First time posting on this thread.

I am and have always been an out and out remainer but we have to accept the deal and leave now. More delay and more uncertainty will crucify the country, the economy, businesses and jobs. We HAVE TO MOVE ON.
Labour are proving they only care about power and have no understanding or interest of what is needed: stability

And yet I still would prefer to stay in the EU... but that ship has sailed

 

[WATFORD zero]

First time posting on this thread.

I am and have always been an out and out remainer but we have to accept the deal and leave now. More delay and more uncertainty will crucify the country, the economy, businesses and jobs. We HAVE TO MOVE ON.
Labour are proving they only care about power and have no understanding or interest of what is needed: stability

And yet I still would prefer to stay in the EU... but that ship has sailed

Fair enough.

You do of course realise that, in order to replace our EU membership and trade deals with the rest of the world, we would be MOVING ON to the longest, most complex set of trade negotiations in British history. The only certainty will be that there will be no certainty within the next 5 years at least, and while those negotiations are ongoing, the economy, business and jobs will continue to be crucified by the continuing uncertainty.

Those negotiations could still range anywhere between Customs Union/Single Market membership to 'no deal' and businesses will still not be able to plan and, consequently won't invest

 

[Dick Swiveller]

Fair enough.

You do, of course realise that we would be MOVING ON to the longest, most complex set of trade negotiations in British history. The only certainty will be that there will be no certainty within the next 5 years at least, while those negotiations are ongoing, and the economy, business and jobs will continue to be crucified by the continuing uncertainty

You say that but I saw someone retweet Caroline Lucas yesterday and her point seemed a real possibility to me.
[TWEET]1185125408162889728[/TWEET]

I have never claimed to understand the ins and outs of the detailed mechanics but given that Rees Mogg et al have changed their tune and it would appear that the new deal is no real difference from the old one - maybe worse - then this thought pattern makes sense to me. Anyone who understands it more care to explain if this is/isn't likely?

 

[abc]

Fair enough.

You do of course realise that, in order to replace our EU membership and trade deals with the rest of the world, we would be MOVING ON to the longest, most complex set of trade negotiations in British history. The only certainty will be that there will be no certainty within the next 5 years at least, and while those negotiations are ongoing, the economy, business and jobs will continue to be crucified by the continuing uncertainty

To a point I agree and all part of why I didn’t want us to leave in the first place. But what’s the alternative now? More delay followed by an election that will either result in a hung parliament, ie no further forward, a Tory majority, ie no deal or this deal, a Labour gov ie who knows?
So my sad conclusion is to take the deal, go to the next stage and move forward

 

[Hugo Rune]

You say that but I saw someone retweet Caroline Lucas yesterday and her point seemed a real possibility to me.
[TWEET]1185125408162889728[/TWEET]

I have never claimed to understand the ins and outs of the detailed mechanics but given that Rees Mogg et al have changed their tune and it would appear that the new deal is no real difference from the old one - maybe worse - then this thought pattern makes sense to me. Anyone who understands it more care to explain if this is/isn't likely?

Exactly.

This is No Deal Brexit through the back door.

Opposing the Letwin agreement confirms this.

 

[WATFORD zero]

To a point I agree and all part of why I didn’t want us to leave in the first place. But what’s the alternative now? More delay followed by an election that will either result in a hung parliament, ie no further forward, a Tory majority, ie no deal or this deal, a Labour gov ie who knows?
So my sad conclusion is to take the deal, go to the next stage and move forward

Well I believe that given this Withdrawal Agreement is going to put us into further years of uncertainty and economic stagnation while the negotiations for the actual 'deal' get underway then the sensible thing to do, is to check with the electorate, now it is clearer what the options are.

At least the people who want to vote for leave now know that it isn't going to be implemented in 2 years, 3.5 years and probably not 10 years. (If it takes us 3.5 years to negotiate the withdrawal agreement, I can't believe that anyone would seriously claim the trade deals can be done in under 2 years). If, knowing what is now known about timescales, complexity etc the majority want to go for Johnson's WA and begin the negotiations for the 'deals' then let's do it.

But I'm told that isn't democratic

(I do a bit of part-time teaching and have had to explain to a few 18-21 year olds that they don't have any say in their futures as it would be 'undemocratic')

 

[Thunder Bolt]

To a point I agree and all part of why I didn’t want us to leave in the first place. But what’s the alternative now? More delay followed by an election that will either result in a hung parliament, ie no further forward, a Tory majority, ie no deal or this deal, a Labour gov ie who knows?
So my sad conclusion is to take the deal, go to the next stage and move forward

This deal will make it very much worse as the employment and environmental issues have been moved from legal to advisory. It is a Trojan horse.
The next stage according to Johnson/Cummings would be to fail the Free Trade Agreement but sign up to one with the USA.

Don't give up now, just for a 'quiet life' because it will be far from that.

Hurray for Sir Oliver Letwin.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

You say that but I saw someone retweet Caroline Lucas yesterday and her point seemed a real possibility to me.
[TWEET]1185125408162889728[/TWEET]

I have never claimed to understand the ins and outs of the detailed mechanics but given that Rees Mogg et al have changed their tune and it would appear that the new deal is no real difference from the old one - maybe worse - then this thought pattern makes sense to me. Anyone who understands it more care to explain if this is/isn't likely?

Lucas and the Labour party objections are predicated on the idea that the Tories will definitely win the next election then decide dumping workers and environmental rights/standards will be a big vote winner, get re-elected, with no Labour/coalition governments ever winning then reversing or improving the situation beyond EU standards. This seems a mildly implausible scenario.

 

[Pretty pink fairy]

Fair enough.

You do of course realise that, in order to replace our EU membership and trade deals with the rest of the world, we would be MOVING ON to the longest, most complex set of trade negotiations in British history. The only certainty will be that there will be no certainty within the next 5 years at least, and while those negotiations are ongoing, the economy, business and jobs will continue to be crucified by the continuing uncertainty.

Those negotiations could still range anywhere between Customs Union/Single Market membership to 'no deal' and businesses will still not be able to plan and, consequently won't invest

40 years in the common market /EU is a drop in the ocean, move on get over yourself
regards
DF

 

[BensGrandad]

If only the EU instead of individuals suggesting there wouldn't be an extension come out and state categorically as a body there will be no extension , problem solved. That would then put an end to the ridiculous Benn Law, which should never have been allowed by the remainer biased Speaker.

 

[Blue Valkyrie]

May well be a short day after all, if the Letwin amendment is passed the Tories are going to pull the vote

They all want to get to Villa Park. Don't blame them, really.

 

[WATFORD zero]

BG meet Ppf,

Ppf meet BG,

I'm sure you'll get on like a house on fire

Time for football, have fun

 

[Thunder Bolt]

If only the EU instead of individuals suggesting there wouldn't be an extension come out and state categorically as a body there will be no extension , problem solved. That would then put an end to the ridiculous Benn Law, which should never have been allowed by the remainer biased Speaker.

Only sore losers blame the referee.

 

[beorhthelm]

You say that but I saw someone retweet Caroline Lucas yesterday and her point seemed a real possibility to me.
[TWEET]1185125408162889728[/TWEET]

I have never claimed to understand the ins and outs of the detailed mechanics but given that Rees Mogg et al have changed their tune and it would appear that the new deal is no real difference from the old one - maybe worse - then this thought pattern makes sense to me. Anyone who understands it more care to explain if this is/isn't likely?

the deal does none of the things claimed. we leave the EU, which we must do to negotiate a future relation with them (thats the procedure). if future legislation comes along that impacts environment or workers rights, thats a seperate matter. i dont see much happen in these areas, they are not vote winners. someone was tweeting we'd get 10 days holiday (like the US), do you really believe any party is going to advance that policy? what we seeing is lots of electioneering, that have little to nothing to do with the EU withdrawal deal.

"no deal" at the end of the transtion means they failed and we are in a worse trading position than now, its inconsistent with the notion that leave want to do so and engage in trade deals. no one except a few hard brexiteer nutters who've got wrapped in the hype want a no deal scenario.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

First time posting on this thread.

I am and have always been an out and out remainer but we have to accept the deal and leave now. More delay and more uncertainty will crucify the country, the economy, businesses and jobs. We HAVE TO MOVE ON.
Labour are proving they only care about power and have no understanding or interest of what is needed: stability

And yet I still would prefer to stay in the EU... but that ship has sailed

From my real world experience, you are far more representative of remain voters than the rather fanatical elements that frequent this thread. As you say time to move on.

 

[Blue Valkyrie]

Exactly.

This is No Deal Brexit through the back door.

Opposing the Letwin agreement confirms this.

A different sort of *no deal* though.

The international treaty paying our bill, agreeing EU citizens rights, and setting the ongoing status of Northern Ireland will be set in stone.

*No deal* then becomes *No EU Trade deal*, which is not sustainable for very long anyway.

I am a big critic of a cataclysmic *no deal* with all the acrimony attached.

This is a different sort of *no deal*. Very bad, but not 'the end of days'.

 

[Dick Swiveller]

Lucas and the Labour party objections are predicated on the idea that the Tories will definitely win the next election then decide dumping workers and environmental rights/standards will be a big vote winner, get re-elected, with no Labour/coalition governments ever winning then reversing or improving the situation beyond EU standards. This seems a mildly implausible scenario.

That was not the point I was referring to. My question was whether or not the plan is to agree a deal and then scupper it to get the No Deal they have been blocked from by other methods.

 

[Blue Valkyrie]

That was not the point I was referring to. My question was whether or not the plan is to agree a deal and then scupper it to get the No Deal they have been blocked from by other methods.

If that is the plan, the DUP would be onboard.

 

[abc]

Three types of MPs today:

Leavers: will vote for the deal
Remainers: will vote against
Undecided: trying to decide what the best thing is to do to keep their job in the next election

One type of Parliament: Useless, shameful and completely lost interest in the people they are supposed to serve