[Politics] Brexit

[Cian]

It remains to be seen if the latest proposal is 'acceptable' with the DUP...

It won't be. But it's only going to get passed in the House if Labour Leavers are in favour of it and there's more of them than there are DUP.

Also, if it ends up being extension, election, vote on the deal the DUP are likely to lose quite a number of seats now. They don't even have support from their traditional base (wealthy farmers) on this at this stage; and Alliance (who take the Lib Dem whip on the rare occasion they have an MP) are eating them alive in Belfast. UUP will take the country seats, Alliance some of the Belfast seats and SDLP (Labour whip) probably get back South Belfast which they lost to a FPTP cockup alone - area voted 35% Unionist (DUP 30, UUP 5) but the other 65% split too widely.

SDLP may also take two SF seats, which would bring two further Remain votes in instead of abstensions.

 

[dingodan]

No form of brexit is acceptable. All remainers think that.

So, the remainers who have accused the PM of not really wanting a deal, they have been the ones that actually don't want a deal? And what they meant by "no deal is unaceptable" is that nothing except remain is acceptable?

That was my point.

But, also like I said, that's actually not all remainers.

You don't speak for all remainers and there is no way that everyone who lost the vote refuses to accept the result, although what you are saying has likely been true for many of the loudest of them.

 

[Lincoln Imp]

The only reason we may now possibly get a deal is because A) Boris has made it quite clear we’re leaving come what may, and B) Boris has been prepared to compromise and find an acceptable way forward for all parties concerned in particular the DUP and the Irish PM. If we do leave with a deal on 31st October, it will certainly be a remarkable feat of leadership, which quite frankly will put the leader of the opposition to shame.

I don't think that Boris has made it quite clear to anyone who matters that we're leaving come what may. His dubious claims that we are are directed primarily at his English fan club.

 

[Lever]

So, the remainers who have accused the PM of not really wanting a deal, they have been the ones that actually don't want a deal. And what they meant by "no deal is unaceptable" is that nothing except remain is acceptable?

That was my point.

But, also like I said, that's actually not all remainers.



You don't speak for all remainers and there is no way that everyone who lost the vote refuses to accept the result, although what you are saying has likely been true for many of the loudest of them.

I accept that Leave generated more votes than Remain in 2016 but....

https://twitter.com/RemainerNow?ref_src=twsrc^google|twcamp^serp|twgr^author

 

[Taybha]

If you read through the new proposed deal there's nothing in it to suggest Percy will get a permit of any sort, or MacAllister will ever Play for a British club, I do however like the U turn on banana shapes to remain bananary looking.

 

[dingodan]

Sorry, but despite your superficial platitudes, the ONLY reasonable way to find out if a deal/no deal/remain/pick any flavour you like, is what people still want , after 3.5 years of learning more about the pros and cons of Brexit, is a second referendum.

People in both camps will have far more knowledge at their disposal to make a more informed decision - whichever way one votes.

Even as a firm Remainer, I would accept the result of a referendum based on 3.5 years of discussion and learning, even if the result was still to Leave.

Maybe you would. But if leave won again we are back where we started, and if remain were to win, a) nobody on the leave side will ever believe you would have accepted a lose outcome, you won't be able to prove that, the only evidence will be said to be that you didn't accept the vote you lost, just the vote you won, and b) nobody on the leave side will accept the result of this vote, on the basis that "why should they when their win was ignored?".

A second vote would either make no difference or start a fight which would never end.

 

[dingodan]

Do you have any evidence for this - or is this just speculation?

I was clarifying with [MENTION=15363]Plooks[/MENTION] what he was saying.

 

[GT49er]

View attachment 116084

With him? How can you even ask!

 

[Lever]

I was clarifying with [MENTION=15363]Plooks[/MENTION] what he was saying.

Fair enough... so I amended my post. Please have a look at the comment and link.

 

[GT49er]

Well US, if you can tell us what a 'decent deal' consists of, I can definitely tell you whether Johnson is on the brink of it.

But since you, Johnson, nobody in government and nobody on NSC can tell us what a 'decent deal' looks like, I would guess the answer is no, yet another unicorn. That's why it would appear incredible and extraordinary.

Hope this helps

Actually, you just hope that nothing helps.



Sent from my reluctant unicorn...........

 

[Dave the OAP]

Wow...looking likely that the border will be the Irish Sea....dup will be crying in the pulpits.

 

[CaptainDaveUK]

I don't think that Boris has made it quite clear to anyone who matters that we're leaving come what may. His dubious claims that we are are directed primarily at his English fan club.

So why have so many people gone to all the bother of the Benn Act? Surely a lot of people do think he means it, including the European Commission.

 

[Machiavelli]

Has that poster who shares the name as a Bond character that has a notable qualification turned up on this thread yet?

 

[Blue Valkyrie]

Could Johnson be on the brink of a decent Brexit deal ? Seems incredible and would be extraordinary. I just want an end to this Circus now, either way

I hope so, I really hope so.

The referendum result meant we had to leave, but 52% of the vote does not give 100% of the say.

We cannot totally vanquish half of the population and then expect to live happily ever after, which is also why a 'still close' 2nd referendum isn't the answer.

'Winner takes all' means we all end up as losers.


*Any deal is better than no deal*. The opposite of the biggest lie of Brexit.


And, for me, pretty much any conceivable deal will allow for a pivot towards joining EFTA in short order. No downside if you look into it seriously - and ignore the hatchet job. But that battle is for another day.


If Johnson gets a deal, he'll be a hero to many - however, I have less than zero trust in him and am very wary of his potential to resort to dirty trickery.

 

[dingodan]

I accept that Leave generated more votes than Remain in 2016 but....

https://twitter.com/RemainerNow?ref_src=twsrc^google|twcamp^serp|twgr^author

It's the twitter account of an author who wrote a book called "It's Ok to change your mind"?

Ok.

Look, I get the arguments people make for voting again. But you also surely can understand how it looks when you lose something, then say "Ok, that one doesn't count, let's do it again, and this one will definately count".

You must have played tennis or something with someone who does that. It just doesn't fly, and it never will.

You can change your mind, you can be someone who wanted to leave and now wants to remain (or vice versa).

If we revisit the question again in 40 years, you know how to vote.

 

[GT49er]

One of my Clients (a West Sussex Manufacturer) has sent a Round Robin Letter to his Suppliers telling us why we should Vote In

Bit of an arse, not wanting his cage wobbled then............................poor lamb, his brain will probably hurt dreadfully he has to make any changes.

 

[Lever]

It's the twitter account of an author who wrote a book called "It's Ok to change your mind"?

Ok.

Look, I get the arguments people make for voting again. But you also surely can understand how it looks when you lose something, then say "Ok, that one doesn't count, let's do it again, and this one will definately count".

You must have played tennis or something with someone who does that. It just doesn't fly, and it never will.

You can change your mind, you can be someone who wanted to leave and now wants to remain (or vice versa).

If we revisit the question again in 40 years, you know how to vote.

...and yet Tory MPs have been changing their minds in droves from Remain to Leave during a matter of weeks but telling the rest of us that if we do the same, it should make no difference to what happens.... Democracy? I don't think so.

 

[GT49er]

Wow...looking likely that the border will be the Irish Sea....dup will be crying in the pulpits.

They can lump it. The rest of us could always vote for a united Ireland...................................and sod off the DUP!

 

[clapham_gull]

This is the original 2017 Backstop deal that was agreed and then changed, just dusted off and given an effectively unactivatable break clause. It could have been negotiated in 2017 if anyone had bothered.

Exactly, but May was very aware of the threat to the "Union".

Unionists in Northern Ireland are the sacrificial lamb of the ERG now the Tories have no majority in Parliament.

 

[beorhthelm]

I hope so, I really hope so.

The referendum result meant we had to leave, but 52% of the vote does not give 100% of the say.

im afraid it does, other EU related referedums have been decided on similar margins, Sweden joined on 52.3% while Norway declined on 52.2 - were they both wrong? its a tired old argument, and parliament voted to leave by 494 to 122 anyway.