[Politics] Brexit

[dingodan]

See, that really is a demonstration of the well-worn phrase, 'turkeys voting for Christmas'. I get where you're coming from, but stubbornly ploughing ahead with something that won't just stuff the turkeys, but the whole damn farm is in no way democratic.
Yes, Leave 'won' back in 2016, but its nearly four years on and you would rather we all suffered, just to enact a (rather dodgy) referendum?
That shows signs of madness, imho.

No, you believe it will "stuff the turkeys and the whole damn farm".

Fair enough, but don't assume that what you believe is neccessarily true and certainly don't assume that everyone else believes it too, they don't. Like I said, that argument was had. People were told all the terrible things that would supposedly happen and they didn't believe it, and they still don't.

You are entitled to your view, but try to remember that so is everybody else.

 

[birthofanorange]

No, you believe it will "stuff the turkeys and the whole damn farm".

Fair enough, but don't assume that what you believe is neccessarily true and certainly don't assume that everyone else believes it too, they don't. Like I said, that argument was had. People were told all the terrible things that would supposedly happen and they didn't believe it, and they still don't.

You are entitled to your view, but try to remember that so is everybody else.

I guess there's only really one way to find out for sure, what people actually think, now...nearly 4 years later, eh?

 

[WATFORD zero]

There it is again. Calling me a "bullshitter" because you don't agree with me.

I'm not saying let's all agree with my opinion, I'm saying let's all agree that we should do what the majority voted for in a democratic vote, because that is how a democractic vote works.

Why not be civil even if you didn't get the outcome you wanted in the vote? Stop treating this issue like some kind of football rivalry.

So what did the majority vote for?

Because, as has become apparent, the majority didn't want TM's deal.

And now the majority don't want (even though it was specifically ruled out by the leave campaign) no deal.

So what is it that the majority voted for. Because, when it comes to the crunch, nobody has come up with a solution which has a provable majority

 

[Lever]

No, you believe it will "stuff the turkeys and the whole damn farm".

Fair enough, but don't assume that what you believe is neccessarily true and certainly don't assume that everyone else believes it too, they don't. Like I said, that argument was had. People were told all the terrible things that would supposedly happen and they didn't believe it, and they still don't.

You are entitled to your view, but try to remember that so is everybody else.

You have identified a lie there; I agree.
Now, can you acknowledge the lies of the Leave campaign during 2016 or do you still accept the Leave propaganda as entirely accurate? Please reflect for a while before replying.

 

[dingodan]

This is, quite palpably, not true. To suggest that the UK being in EFTA is the same as the UK in a No Deal scenario is quite obviously ludicrous.

I never said that the UK rejoining EFTA would be the same as No Deal?

You might be arguing that those represent two "kinds of leave". They don't, if we did that, we would have still left the EU. I'm not saying that there aren't multiple ways of leaving, there are, but they all represent leaving. Anything which is a half in half out scenario isn't leaving. You leave or not, there are not shades of grey. Rejoining EFTA after we left, which we could do, would not change the fact that we have left the EU. Don't misread what I was saying.

 

[Baldseagull]

There it is again. Calling me a "bullshitter" because you don't agree with me.

I'm not saying let's all agree with my opinion, I'm saying let's all agree that we should do what the majority voted for in a democratic vote, because that is how a democractic vote works.

Why not be civil even if you didn't get the outcome you wanted in the vote? Stop treating this issue like some kind of football rivalry.

But mate, neither you nor I can say what sort of Brexit the majority had in mind when they voted.

 

[Jaxie]

So, will Trump agree to Boris' request to have the hit and run 'diplomat' returned to blighty for Due Process, as a sign of our new special post-Brexit relationship, or will he give Boris the finger?

Boris has asked now, and it is now in the news as fact, so it will be interesting to see how he explains the failure of his efforts, if* he fails.

Normally when Boris intervenes when a woman gets into trouble in foreign lands, the woman ends up doing extra jail time....

The Nation waits....

*if......

Intriguing. How will Johnson disguise it when Trump says no. Won’t be a good look for him will it.

 

[Lever]

But mate, neither you nor I can say what sort of Brexit the majority had in mind when they voted.

Why do you try and browbeat people with clear logic ?

 

[dingodan]

Your points (which are fundamentally flawed in my opinion) are expressed in a reasonable and vitriol free manner and so I am sure we can allow the arguments to clash and not the posters.....

There are indeed 'types of Leave' although you (and the ERG) choose to chop semantics and retrospectively claim that the May deal wasn't really leaving. The nonsense about 'we just voted to leave' therefore doesn't entirely make practical sense. The slide towards blaming everyone else but the Leave lobby itself is more of the same poor practice. The EU for instance has negotiated a deal with the British Government and it was presented by May. By sticking by that deal it has somehow morphed in your mind into intransigence.

This whole debate is about people's values and what we believe is our future as a Nation. Your attempts to seize a moral high ground suggests to me that subliminally that you think your values are somehow more superior. If a Leave Deal that protects the jobs, health and aspirations of all people of this country is possible, then that would represent a compromise although I still believe that our future is in Europe for a range of reasons; no such Deal has been devised, let alone approved.

You continue with your 'respecting the vote' stuff; I believe that is pretty meaningless for the reasons above; however I don't expect you to change your values and you cannot expect me to change mine.

Finally, I think your breezy comment that by Leaving we'll 'move forward' and soon have a good relationship with the EU is ill-thought out if not fatuous. When the UK leaves we become a third country, a competitor.... and not a partner and we cannot expect any favours. Likewise, unless a compromise of some kind 'respects the will' (to use your jargon) of the Remain voters, rather than demonising them for holding to their values, then a dissolute, discredited government (like the one we currently have) is unlikely to begin 'mending the fractures'.

Nobody is demonising remain voters for their values, we just hoped their values include democracy.

"a Leave Deal that protects the jobs, health and aspirations of all people of this country" - would be great, as long as that isn't code for a Leave Deal which represents remaining in some way, which it usually does.

I can't make it much clearer, if you want to say that we should leave in some respects, but remain in other respects, then I'm sorry but that doesn't cut it. People voted to leave the EU, not by half, not "in a way", but completely.

We are not after "favors" from the EU, trade is pragmatic and benefits both sides. Being in the EU is how you get favors and back scratches (and sometimes ganged up on too). We don't want to be in an entangling alliance that is the whole point. If it benefits us both to do a deal on X or Y then we will, without hesitation. If it doesn't benefit us, or it doesn't benefit them, then we won't and nor should we. That is what freedom and boundaries and mutual respect looks like.

Nice try keeping it civil, still a bit snarly though to be honest. I genuinely appreciate the effort though.

 

[dingodan]

But mate, neither you nor I can say what sort of Brexit the majority had in mind when they voted.

Well there was a question on the ballot paper, which said do you want to leave the EU or remain in the EU.

I'm going with that, since that is what it said.

 

[Lever]

Nobody is demonising remain voters for their values, we just hoped their values include democracy.

"a Leave Deal that protects the jobs, health and aspirations of all people of this country" - would be great, as long as that isn't code for a Leave Deal which represents remaining in some way, which it usually does.

I can't make it much clearer, if you want to say that we should leave in some respects, but remain in other respects, then I'm sorry but that doesn't cut it. People voted to leave the EU, not by half, not "in a way", but completely.

We are not after "favors" from the EU, trade is pragmatic and benefits both sides. Being in the EU is how you get favors and back scratches (and sometimes ganged up on too). We don't want to be in an entangling alliance that is the whole point. If it benefits us both to do a deal on X or Y then we will, without hesitation. If it doesn't benefit us, or it doesn't benefit them, then we won't and nor should we. That is what freedom and boundaries and mutual respect looks like.

Nice try keeping it civil, still a bit snarly though to be honest. I genuinely appreciate the effort though.

Democracy is still active.... and didn't end on June 24th 2016.
'Favours' was a poor choice of word by me. The EU will be our competitor when we leave and as a third country we can expect competition will be determined and unrelenting. That's business.
No snarls from me - although I do find your final comment a bit patronising

 

[dingodan]

So what did the majority vote for?

Because, as has become apparent, the majority didn't want TM's deal.

And now the majority don't want (even though it was specifically ruled out by the leave campaign) no deal.

So what is it that the majority voted for. Because, when it comes to the crunch, nobody has come up with a solution which has a provable majority

I think you are confusing MP's in Westminister with the general population.

 

[midnight_rendezvous]

Well there was a question on the ballot paper, which said do you want to leave the EU or remain in the EU.

I'm going with that, since that is what it said.

Because reducing something so complex to a simple in-out question has worked out so well...

 

[dingodan]

I guess there's only really one way to find out for sure, what people actually think, now...nearly 4 years later, eh?

What good would that do?

If leave win it does nothing.

If remain win, who cares, votes clearly don't make any difference, and if they do we can just have another one.

If the last vote wasn't good enough for you neither will the next one be. Unless you win.

 

[Motogull]

But mate, neither you nor I can say what sort of Brexit the majority had in mind when they voted.

As a remainer I've never been comfortable with that stance. I saw people voting for change. I don't think they cared what that change was, they just wanted something different. Reckless in my eyes, but there you go. This may be in part why Alexander Boris de Piffle bungle**** Johnson is gaining in the polls. Brexit fatigue and the promise of something happening.

 

[dingodan]

Because reducing something so complex to a simple in-out question has worked out so well...

It's only not worked out well so far because a lot of people took part in a vote and refuse to accept the result.

I doubt anyone expected that, no one would have bothered voting if they thought one side wouldn't accept the outcome.

 

[midnight_rendezvous]

What good would that do?

If leave win it does nothing.

If remain win, who cares, votes clearly don't make any difference, and if they do we can just have another one.

If the last vote wasn't good enough for you neither will the next one. Unless you win.

Sounds like democracy to me...

 

[dingodan]

Democracy is still active.... and didn't end on June 24th 2016.
'Favours' was a poor choice of word by me. The EU will be our competitor when we leave and as a third country we can expect competition will be determined and unrelenting. That's business.
No snarls from me - although I do find your final comment a bit patronising

How about a free trade deal?

 

[WATFORD zero]

I think you are confusing MP's in Westminister with the general population.

No, I'm not. I am specifically talking about the general population.

You are trying to claim that the general population voted for exactly what you voted for. Someone is confused and I'm afraid it's not me.

 

[Lever]

As a remainer I've never been comfortable with that stance. I saw people voting for change. I don't think they cared what that change was, they just wanted something different. Reckless in my eyes, but there you go. This may be in part why Alexander Boris de Piffle bungle**** Johnson is gaining in the polls. Brexit fatigue and the promise of something happening.

I think recklessness is attractive to some people....