[Politics] Brexit

[BLOCK F]

The press conference was arranged outside because Bettel's office is far too small for the 140 press that were invited. Johnson was booed & heckled when he arrived so he chose not to take part in the press conference. I fail to see what is pathetic about Bettel.

I understand all that and for what it is worth, I think Johnson should have attempted to engage in the press conference; however, I thought that Bettel's response was, let us say, against accepted protocol and unnecessary. Perhaps I should have said that rather than pathetic!

 

[Is it PotG?]

As has been stated countless times, you reach a compromise. Whether that's staying in the CU/SM or EEA/EFTA but it's the obvious approach. Opting for hard brexit (and ignoring the view of half the voters) is divisive and revoking A50 is even more divisive.

The only other way to heal the split is another referendum. So, a compromise or a referendum, I can't really see another alternative.

Why a referendum? That doesn't satisfy both sides, and is certainly not a compromise.

 

[Is it PotG?]

As I just responded. With a soft (EEA-EFTA) Brexit. Fairest compromise. Still respects the result of the referendum, and acknowledge the large part of the country that continues to want close cooperation with the EU. Pretty simple really.

Fair enough, aside from the slightly patronising undertones.

 

[A1X]

They shouldn't. So, taking account the result of the referendum, how do you satisfy both sides? 52% in / 48% out?

"Out, but only just out" seems a fairly good reading of the result.

A Hard Brexit on the back of a 52-48 Leave vote would be the equivalent of joining the Euro & Schengen on the back of a 52-48 Remain vote.
A No Deal Brexit on the back of a 52-48 Leave vote would be the equivalent of the UK becoming a department of France on the back of a 52-48 Remain vote.

Of course, as we keep saying, none of this would have happened had a specific Leave option been on the cards at the time of the referendum. But of course it wouldn't because no specific form of leaving could ever have won.

 

[Simster]

Why a referendum? That doesn't satisfy both sides, and is certainly not a compromise.

Ok, so not a referendum, but an EFTA style arrangement? Or staying within the customs union that pretty much the rest of Europe belongs to at the very least.

Fair enough, aside from the slightly patronising undertones.

You asked for it:

Or, more simply, Leavers voting to leave the EU in the referendum wish to leave the EU. As it says on the tin.

He's responding in kind.

 

[Gwylan]

Why a referendum? That doesn't satisfy both sides, and is certainly not a compromise.

Because it wouldn't be a binary referendum: there'd be a choice between Remain, No Deal, May's WA and EEA membership, say. At least, we wouldn't be able to hear about "leave means leave" - we'd have a clearer idea as to what people want

(I should stress that it's not what I favour, I think we should compromise, but I can see it as an option)

 

[BLOCK F]

I will admit that I did think the Luxembourg PM was opening himself up to those accusations, but equally you have to say that the EU by extension is simply doing what it can to distance itself from blame in these Brexit shambles.

Let's not forget the pre-amble here. Johnson spent his time undermining May - easily done, as her deal was truly dreadful. And that isn't a surprise considering the incompetent, clueless team she put together to do the negotiating (including Johnson and Gove, currently in office) - plus in true weedy fashion, she allowed herself to be bullied by right wing extremists in her party, such that the red lines imposed by the ERG made the job near impossible.

So May resigned, and this bullying mess has jumped in promising something he can't deliver. He tried of course, by trying to shut down democracy. That was his big plan - renegotiation was always impossible given the UK's absurd self-imposed red lines, so he was going to undemocratically force through no deal. Now all he is doing is going through the motions - turning up in various European capitals with absolutely no new ideas, and flouncing rather than standing up and speaking at long-organised pressers.

What a terrible prime minister he is. Where May was a drip, he is a bully - and even less competent.

Can't really disagree with this.
I just feel rather depressed and concerned about the general level of political competence that presently exists in virtually all parts of parliament, let alone amongst poisonous advisers such as Dominic Cummings and Seamus Milne There is a good case to suggest that all the parties should hang their collective heads in shame!

 

[Is it PotG?]

Because it wouldn't be a binary referendum: there'd be a choice between Remain, No Deal, May's WA and EEA membership, say. At least, we wouldn't be able to hear about "leave means leave" - we'd have a clearer idea as to what people want

(I should stress that it's not what I favour, I think we should compromise, but I can see it as an option)

So the Remain option would be binary, yet the leave vote split amongst numerous options? OK.

 

[Simster]

There is a good case to say that Conservative and Labour should hang their collective heads in shame!

Fixed for you.

Nobody else has done anything wrong.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Why a referendum? That doesn't satisfy both sides, and is certainly not a compromise.

Many people have changed their minds in the last three years, as we know a lot more about what is involved. I'm a firm Remainer but I didn't think about the borders in Ireland, Gibraltar or Cyprus.
The 3 million EU citizens working here were told it wouldn't affect them at all, were denied a vote despite being tax payers, but then after the referendum they were told they would have to register. That is turning out to be a mess from the Home Office.

We have general elections every five years, so the government can be changed if it is failing. Brexit is failing, and so people should be given the choice to say again.
Personally, I'm all for revoking Article 50, sorting out what we do want to do, then putting it to the test, but I can see that would antagonise many people who are demanding their vote must be honoured.
I really believe Remain would win this time around.

 

[Is it PotG?]

I really believe Remain would win this time around.

As I said this week, I'm all for leaving as per the referendum then having another vote say, every 5 years.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

As I said this week, I'm all for leaving as per the referendum then having another vote say, every 5 years.

Have you got any idea of how long 750 trade deals would take to negotiate?

It took the EU and Canada seven years to negotiate their trade deal. Canada have already told us, that deal will not roll over to us, so we've got to start from scratch.

 

[Is it PotG?]

Have you got any idea of how long 750 trade deals would take to negotiate?

It took the EU and Canada seven years to negotiate their trade deal. Canada have already told us, that deal will not roll over to us, so we've got to start from scratch.

Ok, so have another vote every 15 years.

Just trying to compromise as people change their minds...like you say.

 

[Gwylan]

So the Remain option would be binary, yet the leave vote split amongst numerous options? OK.

(sigh) That's because there are several options to leave. There's no equivalence with remain

 

[Is it PotG?]

(sigh) That's because there are several options to leave. There's no equivalence with remain

So long as it's fair and representative then.

If Remain got 45%, and 5 Leave options got 11% each, what would happen?

 

[beorhthelm]

As has been stated countless times, you reach a compromise. Whether that's staying in the CU/SM or EEA/EFTA but it's the obvious approach. Opting for hard brexit (and ignoring the view of half the voters) is divisive and revoking A50 is even more divisive.

The only other way to heal the split is another referendum. So, a compromise or a referendum, I can't really see another alternative.

the conclusion doesn't follow those options, another referendum will be divisive whatever the outcome. the WA leading to EEA/EFTA arrangment would be the obvious way forward that ticks every box, "just" need to deal with objections to the backstop and were there.

 

[Pretty pink fairy]

So long as it's fair and representative then.

If Remain got 45%, and 5 Leave options got 11% each, what would happen?

We would leave
regards
DF

 

[sparkie]

So long as it's fair and representative then.

If Remain got 45%, and 5 Leave options got 11% each, what would happen?

Surely a 2 question ref ?

1) Leave or Remain.

2) If we leave, which option. ( BOTH LEAVE AND REMAIN VOTERS CAN SELECT AN OPTION ).

 

[schmunk]

(sigh) That's because there are several options to leave. There's no equivalence with remain

Option 2: Remain, and I get a lollipop.

 

[Gwylan]

the conclusion doesn't follow those options, another referendum will be divisive whatever the outcome. the WA leading to EEA/EFTA arrangment would be the obvious way forward that ticks every box, "just" need to deal with objections to the backstop and were there.

Yes, I agree. As I said, it's not an approach that I favour but I can see why it's an option