[Politics] Brexit

[birthofanorange]

The old adage ‘never mix business with politics’ once again rears it’s wise old head as that ranting Brexiteer loon Tim Martin continues his suicidal journey to kill his own business off by banning EU products such as Prosecco and Champagne and completely alienating the vast majority of the country who are against a no deal.

https://metro.co.uk/2019/09/14/weth...t-elite-remainers-as-profits-plunge-10743419/

He is on a little tour of Wetherspoons to preach his ignorant shit. The Cliftonville better make sure it’s stocked up on sausages!

I'm chuckling away at the concept of 'Spoons customers ordering Prosecco or (especially) Champagne. Mind you, I expect a nice bottle of bubbly is ideal for washing down a pre-cooked breakfast, before hitting a few halves of real ale, first thing in the morning.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

I know what you mean. But this always reminds me of the antivivisection 'debate' 20 years ago.

TV interview. Boffin in cord jacket with leather patches on elbows and bad haircut versus earnest young woman with short pink hair and a nose stud (pretty rococo 20 years ago).

Killing animals for profit is cruel!

Yes but we have to use animals to discover new medicines

So are you telling me that every time you kill an animal this is guaranteed to lead to new medicines?

Well, obviously not, but....

And so the cult of antivivisection took hold.

But this was the wrong person asking the wrong question and the outcome appealing to the deluded. Like Brexit

It is not for remainers to predict what will happen if we remain in order to rebut the ludicrous fantasy claims of leavers. Remainers should have firmly focused on the unknown effects of leaving, and ask whether the risk is worth it. Likewise those of us involved in medical research now rebut the (dwindling band of) antivivisectionists by asking the latter where new medicines will come from if we are not allowed to test them

Would you accept an untested chemical as a cure and simply take it or give it to your kids, with no idea whether it will work or, more imporantly, whether it has hideous side effects?.

Yes but there are alternative ways of testing

Name one.

Er, computer modeling

No, that will only tell you what you put in the programme - it can't predict unknown adverse effects or benefits of brand new chemicals. We have to test them on animals before trying them out in humans.

We should still leave (animal research in the last)!

Well, if you are prepared to never take a new medicine (and frankly you are a hypocrite for taking old ones - they have all been safety tested in animals) and, if you are really serious about animal suffering, stop wearing leather shoes and belts, and indeed stop brushing your teeth with anything other than baking soda, I will admire your fortitude. Oh, and when you have kids, no sneaky getting them vaccinated, or taking antibiotics if they get an infection.

I don't disagree with you but to continue with your testing on animals theme ….. there are also middle of the road people …. in this case me. I really don't have an issue with testing on animals when it comes to drugs - particularly life saving ones. What I object to is testing on animals for vanity reasons - makeup and shampoo for example.

 

[vegster]

Interesting stuff from DC's autobiography, he's rather scathing about Boris's hijacking of the leave campaign in order to further his political career......who would have thought ?

Mr Cameron writes that when deciding whether to back Leave or Remain in the campaign, Mr Johnson was concerned what the "best outcome" would be for him.
"Whichever senior Tory politician took the lead on the Brexit side - so loaded with images of patriotism, independence and romance - would become the darling of the party," he says.
"He [Mr Johnson] didn't want to risk allowing someone else with a high profile - Michael Gove in particular - to win that crown."
The former Tory leader adds: "The conclusion I am left with is that he [Boris Johnson] risked an outcome he didn't believe in because it would help his political career."


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49705213

 

[Westdene Seagull]

The postive reasons to stay was to avoid whatever the **** this has become

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And with that post you've just re-enforced my post. If instead of demonising whatever might happen with a leave vote the remain campaign should have promoted the positives for staying, what the EU has 'done for us'. Examples could have included no more roaming phone charges, increased workers rights and the ability to study anywhere in the EU without restriction. But no, instead the campaign targeted the negatives of leaving over the positives of staying. It would probably have swayed enough people for remain to have won ( it wouldn't have changed my mind but I do understand the EU isn't all a bad thing ). The remain campaign is similar to the Tory campaign in the last GE - their main, and some would say only, argument for people to vote for them was 'if you don't vote for us then you'll get him over there, the bloke with the beard who likes to have tea with the IRA' and yet again we saw the result that negative campaign achieved ….. dozens of seats lost.

 

[cheshunt seagull]

Maybe, just maybe, if remainders has strung together a coherant positive campaign for staying in the EU instead of the arrogant negative one they ploughed, they'd have won the referendum ? They look a bit stupid for not doing so.

At the time I was frustrated by the tone of the Remain campaign. I spend a lot of time working on a EU-funded programme that brings entrepreneurs together across Europe and has led to the the creation of many jobs and life-changing experiences. There wasn't anything like enough talk about things like this. Few attempts to breakdown contributions to the EU against receipts through programmes. It is hard to combat unashamedly route one appeals to nativism and pure lies but I think it would have made some difference to what was a close vote. At the same time I would say that having won the referendum the Leave campaign has spent little (or no) time trying to explain in any detail why leaving will benefit the majority of people in the UK . After the initial shock of the result many Remainers (me included) would have been open to a debate about how we could make the best of the new direction but we were never offered anything to engage with.

 

[theonlymikey]

And with that post you've just re-enforced my post. If instead of demonising whatever might happen with a leave vote the remain campaign should have promoted the positives for staying, what the EU has 'done for us'. Examples could have included no more roaming phone charges, increased workers rights and the ability to study anywhere in the EU without restriction. But no, instead the campaign targeted the negatives of leaving over the positives of staying. It would probably have swayed enough people for remain to have won ( it wouldn't have changed my mind but I do understand the EU isn't all a bad thing ). The remain campaign is similar to the Tory campaign in the last GE - their main, and some would say only, argument for people to vote for them was 'if you don't vote for us then you'll get him over there, the bloke with the beard who likes to have tea with the IRA' and yet again we saw the result that negative campaign achieved ….. dozens of seats lost.

The benefits of staying in have been done to death under the guise of what we will lose by leaving. You have a weird skewed outlook on it.

If someone says we will lose access to the single market and this is a bad thing by deduction, a sane person can figure out having the single market is therefore a good thing.

Rather than think rationally though, it was labelled as project fear. Which we know know to be project truth.



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[The Clamp]

And with that post you've just re-enforced my post. If instead of demonising whatever might happen with a leave vote the remain campaign should have promoted the positives for staying, what the EU has 'done for us'. Examples could have included no more roaming phone charges, increased workers rights and the ability to study anywhere in the EU without restriction. But no, instead the campaign targeted the negatives of leaving over the positives of staying. It would probably have swayed enough people for remain to have won ( it wouldn't have changed my mind but I do understand the EU isn't all a bad thing ). The remain campaign is similar to the Tory campaign in the last GE - their main, and some would say only, argument for people to vote for them was 'if you don't vote for us then you'll get him over there, the bloke with the beard who likes to have tea with the IRA' and yet again we saw the result that negative campaign achieved ….. dozens of seats lost.

Lamentably, you are correct.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

I think my cheeky signature is a tad different from one accussing the mods of being Nazi's. Unless of course you actually believe the mods are Nazi's ?

Try playing the ball instead of the man.

 

[Pretty pink fairy]

Lots of t shirts saying Thank EU for the music.
Solidarity with musicians who travel regularly with bands & orchestras who are going to be hit badly by Brexit.

In what way?
Regards
DF

 

[ManOfSussex]

And with that post you've just re-enforced my post. If instead of demonising whatever might happen with a leave vote the remain campaign should have promoted the positives for staying, what the EU has 'done for us'. Examples could have included no more roaming phone charges, increased workers rights and the ability to study anywhere in the EU without restriction. But no, instead the campaign targeted the negatives of leaving over the positives of staying. It would probably have swayed enough people for remain to have won ( it wouldn't have changed my mind but I do understand the EU isn't all a bad thing ). The remain campaign is similar to the Tory campaign in the last GE - their main, and some would say only, argument for people to vote for them was 'if you don't vote for us then you'll get him over there, the bloke with the beard who likes to have tea with the IRA' and yet again we saw the result that negative campaign achieved ….. dozens of seats lost.

Westdene - not specifically this post, but the one you answered earlier maybe, but it all leads into the divisions we now have in this country. You lost, get over it/you're a thick, racist, leave voting **** - it 'aint going to suffice. We've been allowed to set upon each other and these divided wounds are not going to heal. Maybe your suggestion yesterday of deportations is the ultimate explication........

I had an epiphany on Thursday lunchtime - when going round my Dad's to see if he hasn't been burgled, whilst on holiday by working class people from the deprived coastal town he still happens to live a few miles away from, because he passed his 11+ in the early 1950's and was allowed, thanks to the legacy of The Attlee Government, to aspire and help people more stupid than him and become a success in life and retire at 60 in the south of England - and I listened, for more than 30 minutes, to Huw Merriman MP, The Conservative and (supposedly) Unionist Member of Parliament for Bexhill and Battle talk complete **** for 30 minutes on Brexit and reduce both remain voters, such as myself, and perfectly pleasant leave voters with a differing opinion, to laughter and anger at his bull***t. He tried to tell me that in a no deal scenario the 'Common Travel Area takes care of an open Irish border and no deal is worth rolling the dice for.' Incredulous, I briefly gave him a history lesson on customs posts on the Irish border for the 70 years of partitioning until The Maastricht Treaty and asked him if he'd ever heard of Ian Gow who used to be MP in an neighbouring constituency of his. Looking awkward, he moved swiftly on. 2 Leave supporters asked him why, if The Tories want to deliver Brexit and win an election, they don't do a deal with The Breixt Party. It will never happen apparently, because The Prime Minister has told Mr Merriman and he said 'Boris has assured me......' and they both laughed and shook their heads, as I did back to them. Huw Merriman was just a total bull**** artist. Lawyer + Tory MP = bingo. I really wished I'd asked him about his sexual harassment case at the legal lawyers tidying up Lehman Brothers UK operations (Auserity always pays for Tories) and his love child with a Westminster research assistant that he doesn't have anything to do with. It will be to my profound regret that I didn't.

This is divide and rule and we're all being played for. It's nothing to do with leaving The European Union anymore. It's not you winning. You're an ideologue to this 'cause', but you're not one of 'them', you're not a party member. Wake up Westdene.

 

[Pretty pink fairy]

Why wouldn't they be missed ?

Many will miss them, no doubt.

Define many , the Krankie is anti English and makes no bones about it
Regards
DF

 

[Westdene Seagull]

Try playing the ball instead of the man.

You might want to preach that to Plooks.

 

[Blue Valkyrie]

Define many , the Krankie is anti English and makes no bones about it
Regards
DF

Here's a helpful link to the definition of 'many'

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/many

 

[WATFORD zero]

And with that post you've just re-enforced my post. If instead of demonising whatever might happen with a leave vote the remain campaign should have promoted the positives for staying, what the EU has 'done for us'. Examples could have included no more roaming phone charges, increased workers rights and the ability to study anywhere in the EU without restriction. But no, instead the campaign targeted the negatives of leaving over the positives of staying. It would probably have swayed enough people for remain to have won ( it wouldn't have changed my mind but I do understand the EU isn't all a bad thing ). The remain campaign is similar to the Tory campaign in the last GE - their main, and some would say only, argument for people to vote for them was 'if you don't vote for us then you'll get him over there, the bloke with the beard who likes to have tea with the IRA' and yet again we saw the result that negative campaign achieved ….. dozens of seats lost.

The Remain campaign undoubtedly could have been better run, but against a well orchestrated campaign of lies specifically aimed at the naive, it was always going to be a tall order. Don't forget that half the electorate are more stupid than the average person.

In the 3.5 years since, it has become abundantly and factually clear that there isn't and never was a 'good deal' and that was an outright lie. 'They need us more than we need them', 'The easiest deal in history' etc etc

It has also become factually clear that a 'no deal' Brexit in 48 days time will be significantly closer to 'project fear' than any ''smooth and orderly' Exit that the leave campaign claimed.

Given that all the abundant and clear information that has come out over the last 3.5 years hasn't persuaded yourself, [MENTION=11191]Pretty pink fairy[/MENTION], [MENTION=2719]Mouldy Boots[/MENTION], [MENTION=14132]Two Professors[/MENTION], [MENTION=17469]melias shoes[/MENTION], [MENTION=451]BensGrandad[/MENTION] and the rest of your 'On our Way' brigade, I can't really see a 'more positive' remain campaign would have done it

*edit*

There are times when I actually think f*** it, let's go 'no deal' as it's the only way to make it clear to you and your friends what would actually happen. For myself and my family not being able to get fresh veg will be a bit of a pain, but we'd survive with little impact. However there are far too many innocent people who aren't lucky enough to be in my position, who didn't vote for this clusterf*** and who would suffer badly, for the thought to last long.

Besides, you would all be on here blaming the Remainer Lorry Drivers, the Remainer Shelf stackers, the Remainer Medicinal suppliers, the Remainer Customs officers etc, etc, etc

 

[ManOfSussex]

The Remain campaign undoubtedly could have been better run, but against a well orchestrated campaign of lies specifically aimed at the naive, it was always going to be a tall order.

In the 3.5 years since, it has become abundantly and factually clear that there isn't and never was a 'good deal' and that was an outright lie. 'They need us more than we need them', 'The easiest deal in history' etc etc

It has also become factually clear that a 'no deal' Brexit in 48 days time will be significantly closer to 'project fear' than any ''smooth and orderly' Exit that the leave campaign claimed.

Given that all the abundant and clear information that has come out over the last 3.5 years hasn't persuaded yourself, [MENTION=11191]Pretty pink fairy[/MENTION], [MENTION=2719]Mouldy Boots[/MENTION], [MENTION=14132]Two Professors[/MENTION], [MENTION=17469]melias shoes[/MENTION], [MENTION=451]BensGrandad[/MENTION] and the rest of your 'On our Way' brigade, I can't really see a 'more positive' remain campaign would have done it

When you have entrenched grievance - there's nothing that can be done or said in the form of persuasion to make it any different. I'm not making light of it, but the mindset in some people in regards to their view toward The European Union, is so similar to people I encountered in Africa. If you can blame everything on: another tribe/the ruling party/white people/the legacy of colonial subjugation/apartheid - the perceived grievance is there and everything becomes so much simpler. God, Big bad wolf and I'm the victim or otherwise etc - you need to have the belief in it and the mindset is set in stone.

 

[Pretty pink fairy]

Here's a helpful link to the definition of 'many'

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/many

So you don't know that's fine
Regards
DF

 

[JC Footy Genius]

More EU flags than ever at Last Night of Proms. True patriots belting out Land of Hope and Glory. Populist Brexiteers confused and furious in equal measures.

A near-exclusive gathering of the middle-upper classes Waitrose set shows where their true loyalties lie shock but not many EU flags out in Hyde Park amongst the Great British Patriotic public, plenty of these though ...

 

[birthofanorange]

When you have entrenched grievance - there's nothing that can be done or said in the form of persuasion to make it any different. I'm not making light of it, but the mindset in some people in regards to their view toward The European Union, is so similar to people I encountered in Africa. If you can blame everything on: another tribe/the ruling party/white people/the legacy of colonial subjugation/apartheid - the perceived grievance is there and everything becomes so much simpler. God, Big bad wolf and I'm the victim or otherwise etc - you need to have the belief in it and the mindset is set in stone.

That's got me wondering if the Leaver mentality would lead them to being more readily hypnotised, as in more prone to believing in the power of suggestion?

 

[JC Footy Genius]

Amusing to read a self-identified 'Class warrior' lecturing about the pitfalls of entrenched grievance

 

[JC Footy Genius]

Interesting poll in the Guardian yesterday, surprised none of their numerous subscribers on this thread mentioned it.

Tories extend poll lead to 12% despite week of political chaos

Boris Johnson also has a far higher net approval rating for his handling of Brexit than Jeremy Corbyn

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...ll-lead-to-12-despite-week-of-political-chaos

Boris leading in the polls isn't new but the ... 'Almost a fifth (19%) of Labour leave voters are now intending to vote Conservative, suggesting views on Brexit are determining voters’ choice more than traditional party loyalties.' is new to me. Labour leave voters finally realising Labour lied to them at the last GE?