[Politics] Brexit

[lawros left foot]

Until the next one of course...

I’m not sure about that, they’d have to eat kittens or something, to be rated worse.

 

[Yoda]

And actual clear outcomes as to what the votes MEAN.

I.E. Votes for specific deals, if we are to Leave.

All it needs is a mandatory part b. "Even if you vote Remain and Leave wins, do we leave with a deal or no deal?"

By leaving with a Deal, this can be any kind or deal as going into specifics will muddy the options.

 

[osgood]

A general election first, and then a 2nd referendum with a lot closer scrutiny of spending and advertising.

Presuming that Boris/ coalition wins ( currently 4-9)
then if a 2nd referendum votes Leave by a similar majority , (say its 51-49/ 52-48)
Do you think that ALL MPs (if they still maintained a "Remain" majority amongst them ) would next time round , say 3-6 months time would then deliver the wishes of the people ,
or just carry on with their own personal agenda ,against the wishes of their own constituents as they have been for the past 3 years ?

 

[Grombleton]

Absolute **** , nearly as Bad as the Liberal extremists morphing out of the remoaners Mouldy
Regards
DK

So you're outraged at him lying, but you're fine with Boris being a turncoat? Such a limp, wet lettuce

 

[Deleted member 22389]

Presuming that Boris/ coalition wins ( currently 4-9)
then if a 2nd referendum votes Leave by a similar majority , (say its 51-49/ 52-48)
Do you think that ALL MPs (if they still maintained a "Remain" majority amongst them ) would next time round , say 3-6 months time would then deliver the wishes of the people ,
or just carry on with their own personal agenda ,against the wishes of their own constituents as they have been for the past 3 years ?

They would just carry on with their own agenda all over again. What Boris has done is right. It gets things moving, because people are thoroughly pissed off with our politicians arguing and this country standing still.

 

[Chicken Run]

I’m not sure about that, they’d have to eat kittens or something, to be rated worse.

Disagree, people on here absolutely hanging May out to dry on here, now I bet those stupid back to fronts in Parliament wished they had voted for her deal through.

 

[theonlymikey]

PA news agency has filed this report from the Court of Session in Edinburgh, where a cross-party group of around 70 MPs and peers have launched emergency legal action in a bid to stop Boris Johnson proroguing parliament:

Aidan O'Neill QC, representing the petitioners, said the prorogation was "unprecedented" and the petitioners are invoking the court's "constitutional jurisdiction."

He said: "Prorogation is being used to create something which is irreversible, that the UK will be made to leave the EU deal or no deal, do or die, and Parliament is being prevented by abuse of the power of prorogation from doing anything about it.

"There are no precedents for the abuse of prorogation.

"The power of prorogation is not one which is unlimited or unfettered but has to be used in accordance with public trust."

Mr O'Neill said the Queen should be obliged to recall the prorogation order if it turned out to be based on an error of law.

He said: "If the court is satisfied that the advice to the sovereign given yesterday that Parliament be prorogued is in fact found to be an abuse of power based on an error of law, then there should be an obligation on the sovereign to recall that order of prorogation because the sovereign is not above the law."

Before yesterday's announcement, the group had already filed a petition at the Court of Session in an effort to stop Johnson from being able to prorogue parliament.

Today's hearing is to seek an interim edict to stop the black the PM's request to suspend parliament before the full case is heard on Friday, 6 September.

The case is being heard by Lord Doherty.

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

You seem to have missed the judgement on 21st February 2019, in the High Court, where May's own QC admitted the referendum was illegal. As it was only advisory, it couldn't be stopped, but had it been binding it would have been annulled.
Read the link again.

So it wasn’t illegal because it was only advisory. That isn’t really news as we all knew that. My point still stands. It would have been electoral suicide for any major party to just ignore the advice of the result. Therefore none did. The Tories played the cleverest game because rather than slinging insults on the internet they actually did something about Remaining in the EU (by means I have already described). Now of course we have a new Tory Government and one that appears to want to actually leave and they are still playing the cleverest politics. Like it or not the Tories are just better at this than everybody else whatever wing of the party they are on.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Presuming that Boris/ coalition wins ( currently 4-9)
then if a 2nd referendum votes Leave by a similar majority , (say its 51-49/ 52-48)
Do you think that ALL MPs (if they still maintained a "Remain" majority amongst them ) would next time round , say 3-6 months time would then deliver the wishes of the people ,
or just carry on with their own personal agenda ,against the wishes of their own constituents as they have been for the past 3 years ?

There's a lot of ifs buts and maybes in that scenario. Fwiw, I don't think leave would win again. Many people have realised what a con it is.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

So it wasn’t illegal because it was only advisory. That isn’t really news as we all knew that. My point still stands. It would have been electoral suicide for any major party to just ignore the advice of the result. Therefore none did. The Tories played the cleverest game because rather than slinging insults on the internet they actually did something about Remaining in the EU (by means I have already described). Now of course we have a new Tory Government and one that appears to want to actually leave and they are still playing the cleverest politics. Like it or not the Tories are just better at this than everybody else whatever wing of the party they are on.

I agree and Dominic Cummings is the cleverest one of the lot. The problem is that he isn't an elected representative and is in contempt of Parliament but refuses to appear.
He is untrustworthy and working for those in Tufton Street.

 

[Scunner]

All of the above works under the assumption that a No Deal is going to be a political success for BJ and the Tories. There isn't much evidence to suggest that it will do and even if it is only partially as bad as predictions then that would be a disaster politically for them. Voters who voted to quit the EU aren't going to accept any responsibility, as we have seen time and time again. The Tories will be carrying the can. Wonder if there will be such sycophantic love notes about Dominic Cummings written then?

Nope, given it some thought and your reply makes no sense, whatsoever. Please clarify the sections of my post that operate under the assumption that ND is 'going to be a success' and I will try and explain.

 

[midnight_rendezvous]

the politicans arent selling that outcome, they are continuing to "respect the vote" while many are hoping someone else will do something to stop it. the trouble is that, in my view, the increased call for a no deal exit is a consequence of people trying to dilute, postpone or stop brexit. analysis such as that you presented are part of this problem. so we end up heading for no deal because no one has another firm plan.

Why is the analysis part of the problem? It shows there is no mandate for a no deal Brexit. We may be heading that way but it is certainly not the ‘will of the people’.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

I agree and Dominic Cummings is the cleverest one of the lot. The problem is that he isn't an elected representative and is in contempt of Parliament but refuses to appear.
He is untrustworthy and working for those in Tufton Street.

Not strictly accurate ….. he wants conditions on his appearance ….. strangely conditions that not a single MP / politician could ever agree to given they couldn't stick to them.

 

[beorhthelm]

He said: "Prorogation is being used to create something which is irreversible, that the UK will be made to leave the EU deal or no deal, do or die, and Parliament is being prevented by abuse of the power of prorogation from doing anything about it.

"There are no precedents for the abuse of prorogation...."

except 1948, used to force through legislation being blocked by the Lords. arguablly 1997 to suppress a report, though prior to a GE.
I wonder if the case overplayings the brexit argument. it does not directly force the UK to leave the EU, the court would have to account for the government's stated purpose and there is two weeks of parliament in which can do something about Brexit, which they have failed to in the previous months and years. i can see the government making the argument that parliament passed the bill to leave. i hope they (the petitioners) come up with something more substantive about constitution or procedure than politics.

 

[WATFORD zero]

Been away for a couple of days, haven't missed anything have I ?

Just Johnson trying to manipulate parliament into a position where he hopes that they would have to vote for the WA that he himself voted against

Meanwhile, the 'no deal' brigade are creaming themselves thinking that Johnson has improved the prospect of their complete and utter disaster

And some who think this will bring some sort of conclusion to this Brexit clusterf*** and it wouldn't roll on for the next 10 years

Looks like I haven't missed anything much then. Liars have been lying, The naive have been gullible. Situation normal

 

[Westdene Seagull]

Been away for a couple of days, haven't missed anything have I ?

Just Johnson trying to manipulate parliament into a position where he hopes that they would have to vote for the WA that he himself voted against

Meanwhile, the 'no deal' brigade are creaming themselves thinking that Johnson has improved the prospect of a complete and utter disaster

Looks like I haven't missed anything much then. Liars have been lying, The naive have been gullible. Situation normal

Yet strangely prorogue was never one of you options you kept asking about. That Meg needs beating for her failure to predict it.

 

[beorhthelm]

Why is the analysis part of the problem? It shows there is no mandate for a no deal Brexit. We may be heading that way but it is certainly not the ‘will of the people’.

thought that was already said, the mis-representation of information to "prove" one view creates a reaction against it.

 

[WATFORD zero]

Yet strangely prorogue was never one of you options you kept asking about. That Meg needs beating for her failure to predict it.

She's been absolutely correct about what would happen on the last two 'leaving the EU' dates whilst you have been completely wrong. You don't think you may be jumping the gun a little here, in your excitement

Have you had any more thoughts on what that fantasy 'Good deal' the leave campaign sold to you consists of (maybe just the most basic outline ?). As I know that was your preferred option over 'no deal'.

*edit*

And I am genuinely fascinated to know how this deal is going to work to the benefit of Britain, whilst protecting the EU's single market and respecting the red lines you defined. Genuinely

 

[DavidinSouthampton]

So it wasn’t illegal because it was only advisory. That isn’t really news as we all knew that. My point still stands. It would have been electoral suicide for any major party to just ignore the advice of the result. Therefore none did. The Tories played the cleverest game because rather than slinging insults on the internet they actually did something about Remaining in the EU (by means I have already described). Now of course we have a new Tory Government and one that appears to want to actually leave and they are still playing the cleverest politics. Like it or not the Tories are just better at this than everybody else whatever wing of the party they are on.

That is absolute rubbish. If May had played it better right from the very start and actually attempted to talk to and listen to other people and other parties instead of disappearing up her own backside and concentrating on her own party unity rather than anything else (so it seems) we might have come out of this with something half sensible and without a country being as utterly divided as it is now.

Cameron -who is a Tory, if you hadn't noticed - started it off with a half-cock and badly organised referendum which he failed to campaign properly for.
People like Johnson and Gove - both Tories, I believe - lied constantly to the country to the campaign. There are people still naively believing that there will be £350,000,000 a minute (slight exaggeration) to spend on the NHS, when the real figure paid to the EU was actually about a third of that.
May - a Tory - made no attempt to reach out to anyone to bring the country together to sort it out - but pandered to the extremes on the edge of her party and beyond.
And now Johnson - a Tory - is shafting the notion of Parliamentary Democracy to try and get something done. (I hate what he is doing, but would concede that it might resolve it, even if I am likely violently to disagree with what results.

It is the Tory Party which has made a right royal mess of it from beginning to end. Knowing how to do things my ar5e.

It was even the Tories who created the conditions through austerity which meant that people wanted something to protest against, when the "What did Europe ever do for us?" question would be answered if only they would look around them and notice the millions of £s which have been spent in deprived areas which is what the Social Fund concentrates on.

 

[Lever]

I've been away and enjoyed taking a break from thinking about this mess or following the thread.

So it's probably been said..... but surely we are now on the crest of a trough when an unelected PM has the power to seek support from an unelected royal to prevent elected MPs from doing their job.

Another over-riding concern is that with Ruth Davidson resigning we have lost a vital champion for keeping the UK together......

We'll have better days.... one day in the future when this right wing regime is destroyed.