[Politics] Brexit

[Kinky Gerbil]

You can ask these questions again and again. Everyone knows that Brexit means Brexit. How clueless are you*?

I was interested to hear this morning that Boris is going to renegociate. There are several obstacles in the way:

1. There is only one deal on offer and the EU have said they will not go back to square 1 for de novo talks.
2. Boris hasn't actually explained what deal he wants, even over the small matter of hard border with Eire or hard border with Ulster (thrown to the wolves).

The utterly preposterous thing is that tory MPs hare lining up to back him. 49 Signatories now, is it? The tories seem to have transitioned into the lemming party

*irony or facetiousness? You decide.

You forgot he is going to withhold the money owed to the EU till they play ball.

Which will end well for us.

 

[WATFORD zero]

You can ask these questions again and again. Everyone knows that Brexit means Brexit. How clueless are you*?

I was interested to hear this morning that Boris is going to renegociate. There are several obstacles in the way:

1. There is only one deal on offer and the EU have said they will not go back to square 1 for de novo talks.
2. Boris hasn't actually explained what deal he wants, even over the small matter of hard border with Eire or hard border with Ulster (thrown to the wolves).

The utterly preposterous thing is that tory MPs hare lining up to back him. 49 Signatories now, is it? The tories seem to have transitioned into the lemming party

*irony or facetiousness? You decide.

I love the way everyone is getting so excited about this 'leadership contest', particularly our leave voting friends.

I hate to be the one to do this but

CHANGING PM WILL CHANGE NOTHING

There is still no parliamentary majority for either leave option, and changing the leader won't change that.

TO MAKE BREXIT HAPPEN

It is very simple, you must decide whether you want to

Leave with a deal and a customs union (This could be possibly done by October)

Leave with 'no deal', NI border and WTO tariffs (This will need a number of years of implementation and significant investment in infrastructure but can be done, if the will is there).

Decide what it is you want to do, and when you've decided, see if there is a majority in the country for this solution. (This can be done in one simple step if you really think hard about it, without 'splitting the Leave vote' ).

TO STOP BREXIT HAPPENING

Just keep blaming everyone and everything else and carry on in exactly the same way you have for the last 3 years.


I really am trying my best to help here

 

[Stat Brother]

[tweet]1137652270995255296[/tweet]

 

[ManOfSussex]

I recall a lengthy article in the basking glowing aftermath of the 2012 London Olympics by Sir Max Hastings on the talk then of Boris Johnson becoming PM in the future as his star was in the ascendancy and him basically arguing that just because you're a successful and popular maitre d doesn't transfer automatically to being a successful or qualified restaurateur, proprietor and licensee.

Of course Sir Max Hastings isn't from Hastings and therefore would not be able to argue and put into words as succinctly as I can that Boris Johnson is merely an overweight, scruffy haired, opportunistic, arrogant, old Etonion useless ******* ****.

 

[Guinness Boy]

Who are you answering, you've highlighted my post, yet answered some other issues that I haven't raised. But since you mention it, yes, the current parliament was elected after the referendum, but the majority of them CON/LAB were elected on a 'leave, enact the will of the people' ticket. As to who I want running the country, well, it's our own MP's that we elected, but these MP's are not fireproof and beyond criticism.

I'm certainly not highlighting your point. I was just quoting the last post made in a series debating insulting politicians. You, apparently, want to give back control to "dimwits" who you insult. That's a bit odd isn't it?

As for the bit I've highlighted, frankly, where to start. This is the whole problem with this country at the moment, fervent leavers in particular. I would have thought the Conservatives were elected on a platform of "strong and stable" government (LOL), and policies such as scrapping pensions triple lock, scrapping free school lunches for infants (nice) but real terms increases in NHS spending as well as raising the cost of care threshold. Labour, meanwhile, stood on "for the many not the few" and including things such as scrapping tuition fees and zero hours contracts, more free child care and nationalising things, particularly rail and water.

Yet all this has been reduced to by the zealots is "deliver Brexit" as if we still didn't have a country to run and fundamental choices to make about what is invested in and how it's paid for. And, as [MENTION=396]WATFORD zero[/MENTION] points out, the TYPE of Brexit wasn't on anyone's manifesto. Hence you get remain Brighton and Hove electing stauch remainers like Caroline Lucas and Peter Kyle and other Tory remainers like Sarah Wollastone keeping their seat. And who knows what the burghers of Uxbridge were thinking when they re-elected BoJo? Though, having worked up there, my strong suspicion is they put an X next to his name because that's how they sign their own.

 

[albion68]

So, what is 'the will of the people' that should be enacted ?

Is it to leave the EU with a deal and a customs union

or

Is it to leave the EU with 'no deal', a border in NI and WTO terms

Now, I think most people would agree that these are very different solutions with hugely different impact on Britain's future. Since it has never been clear which is 'the will of the people', what should parliament enact

(Or of course, you could continue to ignore the real reason why Brexit hasn't happened, let the clusterf*** continue, and continue to blame everything and everyone else).

I think you are going round in circles with this point ,but you know it was a simple in or out question in the referendum and there was stuff about possible problems with NI border before the referendum but i`m guessing that the general mass of voters did not concern themselves with this or see it reported in their busy lives ,frustrating it is for you but IMO a lot of people don`t go in depth with politics as some on here do ,not that they are stupid just not interested in the finer details . I only go by whats on the news or political programmes on the TV or newspapers .

 

[WATFORD zero]

I think you are going round in circles with this point ,but you know it was a simple in or out question in the referendum and there was stuff about possible problems with NI border before the referendum but i`m guessing that the general mass of voters did not concern themselves with this or see it reported in their busy lives ,frustrating it is for you but IMO a lot of people don`t go in depth with politics as some on here do ,not that they are stupid just not interested in the finer details . I only go by whats on the news or political programmes on the TV or newspapers .

But we are all going round in circles because the people who voted leave have to decide which they want

Is it to leave the EU with a deal and a customs union
or
Is it to leave the EU with 'no deal', a border in NI and WTO terms

Do you not see that this complete waste of time and money will simply continue until the people who voted to leave decide which they want

 

[Guinness Boy]

I think you are going round in circles with this point ,but you know it was a simple in or out question in the referendum and there was stuff about possible problems with NI border before the referendum but i`m guessing that the general mass of voters did not concern themselves with this or see it reported in their busy lives ,frustrating it is for you but IMO a lot of people don`t go in depth with politics as some on here do ,not that they are stupid just not interested in the finer details . I only go by whats on the news or political programmes on the TV or newspapers .

I'm not sure admitting you don't go in to any depth is a good reason to vote for change. I keep seeing the phrase "how hard can it be". The answer is very. Yet when this was pointed out during the campaign it was dismeissed as "project fear". Now it turns out those believing the project fear narrative were doing so based on the front of The Sun and the back of a fag packet.

 

[albion68]

But we are all going round in circles because the people who voted leave have to decide which they want

Is it to leave the EU with a deal and a customs union
or
Is it to leave the EU with 'no deal', a border in NI and WTO terms

Do you not see that this complete waste of time and money will simply continue until the people who voted to leave decide which they want

So what your saying is another referendum with a list of different ways of leaving or Remain and Remain is the winner fair enough but it still goes back to why ask to stay or leave in 2016 when MP`can`t carry out the result so why ask in the first place which makes me think they thought it was an easy win for Remain just a confirmation ,but they did not know the mood of the country .Having said that Con /Lab break a lot of promises when they are in all through history .

 

[vegster]

I think you are going round in circles with this point ,but you know it was a simple in or out question in the referendum and there was stuff about possible problems with NI border before the referendum but i`m guessing that the general mass of voters did not concern themselves with this or see it reported in their busy lives ,frustrating it is for you but IMO a lot of people don`t go in depth with politics as some on here do ,not that they are stupid just not interested in the finer details . I only go by whats on the news or political programmes on the TV or newspapers .

And here lies the problem, it's impossible to extricate ourselves without doing major damage. ergo, second referendum.

 

[WATFORD zero]

So what your saying is another referendum with a list of different ways of leaving or Remain and Remain is the winner fair enough but it still goes back to why ask to stay or leave in 2016 when MP`can`t carry out the result so why ask in the first place which makes me think they thought it was an easy win for Remain just a confirmation ,but they did not know the mood of the country .Having said that Con /Lab break a lot of promises when they are in all through history .

You're right in that the result of the 2016 referendum was completely unimplementable. It was pointed out at the time but amongst the tidal wave of **** which was being thrown around I can see why it was ignored (same as the NI border issue) or brushed off as 'Project fear'.

Anyway, the referendum has put us into this impossible situation and the only way I believe this will be resolved is with a second referendum with implementable options (which is quite easily done without 'splitting the leave vote').

Here's one from last Xmas https://nortr3nixy.nimpr.uk/showthread.php?368879-1st-2nd-choice-Referendum-Poll

Until then, everything else (including this leadership contest) is just wasting more time and money and all the while this clusterf*** continues, businesses are completely unable to plan and the economy suffers.

If we vote to remain, it's clear what will happen.
If we vote for a deal with customs union, it can probably be sorted for October.
If we vote to leave with 'no deal' then at least we can get on with planning it properly, building the customs posts in NI, negotiating within the WTO, building the lorry parks, commissioning the IT infrastructure, putting the tenders out for the various systems that will have to be built and recruiting the HMRC staff required (Ok, it will take a few years and some serious investment, but at least we will have decided and put in place the actual things to make it happen - we've wasted 3 years already).

 

[albion68]

You're right in that the result of the 2016 referendum was completely unimplementable. It was pointed out at the time but amongst the tidal wave of **** which was being thrown around I can see why it was ignored (same as the NI border issue) or brushed off as 'Project fear'.

Anyway, the referendum has put us into this impossible situation and the only way I believe this will be resolved is with a second referendum with implementable options (which is quite easily done without 'splitting the leave vote').

Here's one from last Xmas https://nortr3nixy.nimpr.uk/showthread.php?368879-1st-2nd-choice-Referendum-Poll

Until then, everything else (including this leadership contest) is just wasting more time and money and all the while this clusterf*** continues, businesses are completely unable to plan and the economy suffers.

I think when you look at TM`s deal bad as it was would have done the job and we would be negotiating the trade deal with EU soon ,but what i have noticed is that Jeremy Corbyn keeps saying we need an Election because of the Brexit mess which they are partly causing by nearly all Labour MP`s voting down TM`s deal but they are under orders to do this they are more numbers then the ERG .For JC its all about getting in to power he is not bothered about Brexit only one that is a BRINO a Marxist Government would be worse then a bunch of Tory toffs not forgetting the other thing they are in the news about.

 

[WATFORD zero]

I think when you look at TM`s deal bad as it was would have done the job and we would be negotiating the trade deal with EU soon ,but what i have noticed is that Jeremy Corbyn keeps saying we need an Election because of the Brexit mess which they are partly causing by nearly all Labour MP`s voting down TM`s deal but they are under orders to do this they are more numbers then the ERG .For JC its all about getting in to power he is not bothered about Brexit only one that is a BRINO a Marxist Government would be worse then a bunch of Tory toffs not forgetting the other thing they are in the news about.

TM's deal was the only deal available from the day after the referendum (other than a few tweaks). And the Customs Union was still in there, just renamed 'the backstop' with the can kicked down the road by 2 years. There was no real negotiation as both us and the EU knew what the 2 options were available all along. I remember people at the time talking about 'keeping our cards close to our chests' like it was some game of poker. In international trade negotiations, each side can look up exactly what 'cards' the other side has, as all the necessary information regarding imports, exports, volumes etc is on the Internet

Don't get caught up in the Labour/Tory thing either. After Cameron decided to cover the cracks in the Tory party with a referendum (that went well didn't it ) neither party could find a way out of the unimplementable mess that was voted for.

Neither of them will make a decision because to Leave or Stay would piss off a significant proportion of their support. That's why neither party wants to be seen to be the one making the decision.

Just another reason why a second referendum is the only way out.

 

[albion68]

TM's deal was the only deal available from the day after the referendum (other than a few tweaks). And the Customs Union was still in there, just renamed 'the backstop' with the can kicked down the road by 2 years. There was no real negotiation as both us and the EU knew what the 2 options were available all along. I remember people at the time talking about 'keeping our cards close to our chests' like it was some game of poker. In international trade negotiations, each side can look up exactly what 'cards' the other side has, as all the necessary information regarding imports, exports, volumes etc is on the Internet

Don't get caught up in the Labour/Tory thing either. After Cameron decided to cover the cracks in the Tory party with a referendum (that went well didn't it ) neither party could find a way out of the unimplementable mess that was voted for.

Neither of them will make a decision because to Leave or Stay would piss off a significant proportion of their support. That's why neither party wants to be seen to be the one making the decision.

Just another reason why a second referendum is the only way out.

/
So if Leave won second referendum ,what then ? Personally i don`t feel happy about more referendums. Remainers say it has taken 3 yrs and Leavers have messed it up ,it was going to take 3 yrs anyway before the extension and the MP`s have messed it up not the voters you need to separate the two when you quote .

 

[WATFORD zero]

/
So if Leave won second referendum ,what then ? Personally i don`t feel happy about more referendums. Remainers say it has taken 3 yrs and Leavers have messed it up ,it was going to take 3 yrs anyway before the extension and the MP`s have messed it up not the voters you need to separate the two when you quote .

All explained 4 posts up

 

[astralavi]

Why does any of that matter? The offending poster is still not be banned and the mods have STILL done nothing. I will give them until the end of the day to rectify this or I am deleting my account. I WILL not be part of a communirt that turns a blind eye to these Nazi views.
Maybe [MENTION=6886]Bozza[/MENTION] will do somthing as reporting the posts and the other mods have clearly failed.

What happened?

 

[portslade seagull]

Quite. Now is the time for a Tory leader who can show some humility, admit to failings and genuinely try to put some things right.

I'll add any leader but not sure one exists among the current crop

 

[portslade seagull]

Why does any of that matter? The offending poster is still not be banned and the mods have STILL done nothing. I will give them until the end of the day to rectify this or I am deleting my account. I WILL not be part of a communirt that turns a blind eye to these Nazi views.
Maybe [MENTION=6886]Bozza[/MENTION] will do somthing as reporting the posts and the other mods have clearly failed.

I've got an idea. Put him on your ignore list

 

[Guinness Boy]

No. These horrible and offensive views should bot be "ignored" they should be banned.

No, they should be challenged.

 

[shingle]

Why does any of that matter? The offending poster is still not be banned and the mods have STILL done nothing. I will give them until the end of the day to rectify this or I am deleting my account. I WILL not be part of a communirt that turns a blind eye to these Nazi views.
Maybe [MENTION=6886]Bozza[/MENTION] will do somthing as reporting the posts and the other mods have clearly failed.

What's going on, have I missed something, cos as far as I know the offending poster in recent months has commented on Brexit and Brexit only, his signature has been the same for years, and I'm not aware of any Nazi views being promulgated. I would like to know if this isn't the case as I'm not always on here, but what I wouldn't advise is trying to bully the mods, they do a great job as it is, and nobody has ever succeeded. Plenty of posters have flounced over the years for different reasons and NSC goes on, but if you're looking for an echo chamber then maybe NSC isn't the place for you.