[Politics] Brexit

[LlcoolJ]

I have been opposed to being part of the EU (or the EEC as it once was) since 1974; I voted 'no' in 1975, and I've wanted us to leave ever since. Well, no, not quite - for a number of years I lumped it rather than liking it, but spent my days bothering about other things - girls, bands, buying a house, raising a family - and never really believing we'd get a chance to ever have a vote on membership; so much was dumped on us whether we wanted it or not; the wine lake, the butter mountain, people being prosecuted for using imperial measures, Single European Act, the Lisbon Treaty - all without our consent.
So, that's 45 years I've been wanting out; I can honestly say, with my hand on my heart, I have not been drunk all that time! (and I wasn't really that ugly back in the day either!)

So while you had important things to worry about, you weren't bothered about the UK being part of the EU. Fair play. Me too.

I'm 44 and I can honestly say that I have never even considered us being in the EU being an issue. I don't read right wing newspapers, it's not impacted my life or the lives of anyone I have ever met. It's just always been a total non issue.

Until relatively recently, where a bunch of horrible right wing racists tried (and succeeded) to get the attention of people who have been screwed by globalisation and the policies of a Tory government. The screwing of them easily blamed on immigrants and somehow, the EU.

Neither of whom had anything to do with them being screwed.

I'm angry about a lot of stuff politically. Mostly the disgraceful raping of public services by this government in the name of "austerity". A disgusting political agenda which has ruined many thousands of lives and will take decades to repair. If ever.

That impacts people's lives. I've seen it first hand.

Being in the EU? Nope. Never known anyone's life affected by that other than positives.

Do some charity work or something. You know, something that will help people. Rather than being angry about a thing that you didn't care about when you had more important things to worry about.

It's all such bollocks.

 

[drew]

I dislike layers of bureaucracy too, which is why I describe myself as a reluctant remainer. I am also a child of the 70s.

However that's ideological and I look at personal reality. My industry has been completely freed of bureaucracy because of the EU and so has my partners. It isn't called a free-market for nothing.

If you hark back to a Golden Age, you'd better tell everyone when it was. The reality is (I'm sorry) but you are more aware of bureaucracy and vested interest now, but that doesn't mean it didn't exist in the nationalised world of Post War Britain.

Life was "simpler", but you far less aware of what was going on.

Dangerous politicians like Rees Mogg aren't looking back to a glorious past, they are looking forward to a Utopian individualistic future that has never existed in this country. A country where they are quite happy for industries to be wiped out if they can't compete with the futurist communist capitalist fusion of undemocratic states like China.

A country that is currently setting up camps to re-educate those who dare to be religious.

That's their "free market", attempting to convince us that it's an improvement in the EU. And they dare to lecture us on "democracy" and personal freedom.

Be careful what you wish for because I promise you this. It certainly isn't on their their agenda.

Agree with most of what you say apart from your description of JRM. I think it is more a case that he would like unregulated financial markets which he and his partners in business can exploit. The UK becoming a tax haven for investors. He doesn't give a flying **** about manufacturing, agriculture, fishing etc, they will be the collateral damage to his financial gains.

 

[Mental Lental]

Can we merge this thread with the other one now? Maybe change the old defunct poll from the Mega Threadnaught with this one?

 

[LlcoolJ]

Exactly what bureaucracy do you want to see removed and why? Most of it in the workplace is about health and safety for workers or to protect consumers. Bit like the Tories crying out for less banking regulation in the early 00s and then look what happened and imagine how much worse it would have been had there been less controls in place!

Exactly. Which EU regulations are actually preventing anyone here doing anything? What is this mythical barrier to us doing better?

****ing off workers rights and health and safety regulations? Brilliant.

Let's leave it all to the Tories. I'm sure we'll be fine.

 

[Triggaaar]

I honestly don’t know what the opposition is supposed to do / have done.

Offer an alternative?

 

[Grombleton]

Silly me, I thought the vote was "Do you want to Leave or Stay?"

Quite straightforward.

True, however how relevant that was to my post is currently lost on me?

 

[clapham_gull]

No, I didn't say that. You are trying to twist my reason for voting to suit the stereotype you want to imagine is a typical 'leave' voter in their fifties.

You want to think you know why I voted the way I did. You are wrong, and surely you can see you have just tried to put words in my mouth that I didn't say?.


That's not what I meant, regarding the workplace. Not paperwork, not 'elf n safety'!

In both cases, I mean the entire unnecessary and faceless layers upon layers of officialdom and ludicrous amounts of people all trying to justify their existence and salary.

So instead of demanding I have to tell you exactly why I voted the way I did (and would again, in a heartbeat, for the long term good, including economic freedoms of the country IMHO) how about some of the remainers here answer this?



Surely you are slightly uncomfortable, are there no alarm bells at all about a country being unable to extract itself from what was meant to be a Trade Agreement?

"If you hark back to a Golden Age"

I've no idea, but you clearly stated that you are a child of the 70s but "had no" say. What exactly was the "say" you wanted in the 70s ?

I clearly remember the 1970s, but am struggling to understand the point you are making.

Do you honestly believe that leaving the EU will relieve you of the "faceless layers upon layers of officialdom"

The reality is that as a country we as uneducated about the workings of the EU as we are about the workings of our own Government, State and Civil Service. That's my problem with the democracy argument.

Where aren't you campaigning about The Privy Council, The House of Lords or even an unelected Head of State ?

Nah, that's our undemocratic institutions and they are "sovereign" and "Best of British".

Hypocrisy of the highest order.

I hate the EU. There you are. But I voted remain, because I didn't swallow the con. The EU doesn't take power away from me - it takes power away from "them". That's the best I can hope for at the moment.

 

[Gwylan]

Offer an alternative?

They have, several times. They're in the minority though so it's never going to get through

No, Tories own this mess, the whole caboodle.

 

[drew]

Drew, legislation is passed to control people, usually by powerful people who become more powerful as a consequence. As Lady Seagull says, doesn’t that alarm you? It’s not all consumer-led!

Jesus, are you stockpiling the tin foil!!!

Even if what you say has any semblance of truth then don't you think that nothing would change except that the laws to control us will be made by the likes of the british establishment (as it was centuries before we joined the EU) which will be doing one thing and one thing only and that is to protect themselves and build their own little empires?

 

[LadySeagull]

Do you honestly believe that leaving the EU will relieve you of the "faceless layers upon layers of officialdom"

relieve me? This is not about me.

I voted for what I believe is best for this country, unlike most remain voters I have spoken to, who, it seems to me, voted in relation to their own little bubble (their money, their mortgage, their cosy life) and now want to know 'what's in it for me?' That's not what the vote was about and it's clearly going to be a long haul change for the whole Country.

There will always be layers of officialdom, but what I believe is not needed/is unhealthy for the economy is the monster that is EU officialdom above the UK's own version.

Which EU regulations are actually preventing anyone here doing anything?

Did I say they were? Nope.

Again, why are remainers trying to put words into the mouth of a leaver?

How can people honestly be comfortable that what was just a Trade Agreement has us so tightly encapsulated that we can't get out when the majority of the country wants to? So you all think, well we'll just sit down and shut up then...

 

[portlock seagull]

Jesus, are you stockpiling the tin foil!!!

Even if what you say has any semblance of truth then don't you think that nothing would change except that the laws to control us will be made by the likes of the british establishment (as it was centuries before we joined the EU) which will be doing one thing and one thing only and that is to protect themselves and build their own little empires?

I don’t disagree with your general sentiments however we have the small difference of voting our lot in or out if that makes any difference of course.

 

[LlcoolJ]

Surely you are slightly uncomfortable, are there no alarm bells at all about a country being unable to extract itself from what was meant to be a Trade Agreement?

It's really, really easy to answer that. It's not just a trade agreement, it's something much better than that now for us. Freedom of movement, little things like the EU stopping roaming charges by phone companies, lots of small stuff that nobody notices. But they will notice when it's gone.....

Your comeback will be, "exactly, where will it end? etc".

If we are in, we can Veto ANYTHING. If we are out we will doff our hats and do what we're told to because we'll need to. A loss of power, and as such a loss of "sovereignty". My main reason for voting to stay in. So we still have some real power over things we don't want to happen.

The ridiculous point about paperwork, bureaucracy..... Have you actually spoken to anyone in business? This shit is already ruining many of them, and the majority are terrified that an exit = LOADS more admin, paperwork and cost. The uncertainty will continue for years. The only winners will be lawyers....... Nobody else. Oh.

You spoke about a bubble previously. In your little Brexit bubble you've convinced people that you're right. So you think that's the case in the rest of the country. Many people who voted Leave who are in business have a very different view now. Many people who are looking at signing on because their jobs are at risk, or are gone, have a very different view now.

Trust me, should there be a vote, you're likely to be horribly surprised.

 

[clapham_gull]

relieve me? This is not about me.

I voted for what I believe is best for this country, unlike most remain voters I have spoken to, who, it seems to me, voted in relation to their own little bubble (their money, their mortgage, their cosy life) and now want to know 'what's in it for me?' That's not what the vote was about and it's clearly going to be a long haul change for the whole Country.

There will always be layers of officialdom, but what I believe is not needed/is unhealthy for the economy is the monster that is EU officialdom above the UK's own version.


Did I say they were? Nope.

Again, why are remainers trying to put words into the mouth of a leaver?

How can people honestly be comfortable that what was just a Trade Agreement has us so tightly encapsulated that we can't get out when the majority of the country wants to? So you all think, well we'll just sit down and shut up then...

You have absolutely no control as an individual over what is best for this country.

The best chance you have is living in a marginal constituency and praying that your MP (if you elected them) is sitting in the cabinet or Prime Minister.

The EU with all it's faults (there are many) has defused it. You do make a good point about remainers voting for themselves, but I'll add another. I believe leavers on the whole have failed to produce an argument about what it does for them and rather how it will negatively affect others they despise.

Do I blame them ? Not at all, nothing wrong with a two fingers up to the establishment. That's what got Trump elected.

But this is different. You've elected it for eternity and that's parliament is struggling with.

I repeat. I hate the EU but couldn't vote against it on the basis I hate the undemocratic institutions of this country even more.

If you believe they are "sovereign" so be it.

 

[LlcoolJ]

You have absolutely no control as an individual over what is best for this country.

The best chance you have is living in a marginal constituency and praying that your MP (if you elected them) is sitting in the cabinet or Prime Minister.

The EU with all it's faults (there are many) has defused it. You do make a good point about Remainers voting for themselves, but I'll add another. I believe Leavers on the whole have failed to produce an argument about what it does for them and rather how it will negatively affect others they despise.

I repeat. I hate the EU but couldn't vote against it on the basis I hate the undemocratic institutions of this country even more.

If you believe they are "sovereign" so be it.

Completely agree.

 

[SussexSeahawk]

I voted REMAIN, but there was a majority that voted to leave, you can't then ask the same question again. You can say, OK, we voted to leave and now how do we do that, but you can't say "let's have another go, and see if we get what we want this time".

Here's my analogy. There are 100 people who have are all going to a restaurant together. For some reason the rule is that at whatever restaurant they choose, everyone has to have the same meal. They get outside a restaurant and everyone looks at the menu and 52 people say they are happy with eating at that restaurant. But then they get inside and realise that actually some people voted because for the restaurant because they wanted the chicken, others wanted the steak etc. and actually there's no single option that 50 people were happy with. If they'd have voted outside for which meal they were having at the restaurant, that would be democratic. But getting inside the restaurant and being forced into an option that less than 50% of people want because leaving the restaurant would be an affront to democracy is stupid.

 

[clapham_gull]

To me, the people who voted leave have completely chickened out. Sorry.

Had a social media outburst, treated the referendum like the final of x-factor and in true NSC fashion had a "flounce".

If I haven't made my point, dealt with their hatred of Palace by deciding not to play them again.

Brilliant. What the f### has happened to this country.

 

[LadySeagull]

To me, the people who voted remain have completely chickened out.

Sorry.

 

[Algernon]

If we don't leave will we now see all the companies that said they were quitting the UK or moving production elsewhere staying/coming back?

 

[LadySeagull]

Have you actually spoken to anyone in business?

Hmmm...I have run my own business in the past, two different ones and very successfully at the time.

We are never going to agree and are so polarised that we are never going to convince the other.

You cannot convince a leaver to change their mind and I don't expect to convince a remainer to change their mind either, but at least some of the name-callers have gone away. I respect and understand the remain position and some of my best friends voted to remain, BTW, but it's not my view.

This is all healthy discussion at a time of turmoil but it's not getting anywhere. We will have to agree to disagree - at least we have the Albion in common!

 

[LlcoolJ]

Hmmm...I have run my own business in the past, two different ones and very successfully at the time.

We are never going to agree and are so polarised that we are never going to convince the other.

You cannot convince a leaver to change their mind and I don't expect to convince a remainer to change their mind either, but at least some of the name-callers have gone away. I respect and understand the remain position and some of my best friends voted to remain, BTW, but it's not my view.

This is all healthy discussion at a time of turmoil but it's not getting anywhere. We will have to agree to disagree - at least we have the Albion in common!

Whilst I completely agree with your post, this part says a hell of a lot.

It's the future that's important, not the past. That's what I'm concerned about. It's also what everyone I speak to in business currently is concerned about.

Presuming that your previous successful business ventures were UK based, they were run whilst we were a member of the EU? Why deny that opportunity to future/current business owners when you have been successful within that framework?

I can tell you honestly that this whole situation is a simmering disaster, already costing jobs (damn lies, statistics etc) and investment which will probably be impossible to reverse. Even if we step back from the brink of insanity. So much damage already done which will filter through in time.

And all so unnecessary.