[Politics] Brexit

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

There are those from Remain who are trying to capitalise on the murder of Jo Cox.Shameful.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...tion-poster-just-90-minutes-wife-s-death.html

This an article in the Mail online, which alleges that before his wife was killed, the husband of the MP criticised Farage.

The whole world would benefit enormously by a period of your silence.

 

[Deleted member 22389]

By the way, I'm completely aware that Farage isn't part of the official campaign - however, it has (until last Thursday) been very helpful to Vote Leave to have Farage stoking up the anti-immigrant rhetoric. And I'm definitely NOT asking for the immigration debate to only be positive. It would just be nice to have some balance. And you are, right, a lot of what is being said about immigration does make me feel uncomfortable. For me, one of the core British values is that we are an open, compassionate nation. This value has been eroded quite dramatically over the course of the past few months. It's tragic that it takes the death of an MP to make us sit back and think more deeply about this.

Anyway, for the record I am sympathetic to the fears that some people have of mass immigration - but we should be dealing with those fears in a much more positive way. And certainly not by leaving the EU, as that is unlikely to make any material difference. In fact, it will make things MUCH worse for those who are most affected, by reducing growth, increasing unemployment, etc, etc. You know my views!!

The word compromise seems to have gone out of the window with the EU. In my world, we compromise, find a solution, shake hands and come up with something that works for everybody, that is a democracy.

It appears as a Leaver like myself we can't have any of it, even thou aspects of the argument are completely fair, reasoned and most importantly correct.

We have the EU saying NON to everything, we have politicians not listening to peoples concerns deflecting away from the subject, we have the media twisting the words of politicians, then we have a group of people constantly labelling others, it has to stop.

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

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That is very amusing. I confess that recently I haven't paid much attention to either official campaign as they both seem to be caricuratures of dumbed down debate. That one wins the competition for irrelevant propaganda ! If the Referundum were to be decided on the official campaigns I would abstain. They just haven't been debating the issues that are important to me but having made my own mind up I will vote Leave despite the campaign not because of it. With reference to our discussion I want to feel that if a progressive Government is the will of the people it will not be stopped by the free marketer bankers of the EU.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Posted on another thread, but relevant here too.

The Sunday Times has today called for a tactical Leave vote to allow Cameron to renegotiate the terms of our membership with the EU, suggesting an emergency brake on immigration is reasonable.

On Thursday, therefore, we should vote “leave”. Y.[/QUOTE

Seriously, if you think we can vote 'leave' then go back and renegociate our terms and remain, you are going to have a nasty surprise. If the outcome is leave, how well do you think if will go down if Cameron says 'NO! I am going back to Brussels to negociate a New Deal. Wish me well'. He would be thrown in the sea. If you vote leave and this is the outcome, we will leave.

 

[drew]

I agree there needs to be an effective second chamber for scrutinising legislation and that the House of Lords needs to be replaced. However I think you are conflating two separate issues. The role of the EU has never been to scrutinise legislation. It has never claimed to do so. The closest to this is the European Court but do you really think that a court made up of judges who may have no affinity with the UK should be able to overturn democratically made local decisions ? One important check and balance this country has is that sometimes we elect Tory Governments and sometimes Labour. Just because the current Government is not to your or my taste this does not mean we should overridfe democracy. I would like the next Labour Government to re-nationalise the railways and I do not want European Law to prevent this from happening. I agree with your last point that the vote will not radically alter our lives either way which does rather shame the scare stories of both official campaigns.

Surely the European Court of Justice merely ensures that EU laws are applied equally across all member states. You make it sound like they are challenging every single law.we pass. Yes, the judges are unelected, but then so are the judges in this country that apply the laws of the land to their decisions.

As for you last comment, how do you extrapolate from the comment 'I don't think that leaving is going to see a massive reduction in potholes in the UK as the leave campaign suggest' into 'I agree with your last point that the vote will not radically alter our lives either way'?

If we leave, we are likely to face many years of uncertainty, firstly as we negotiate our 'divorce' from the EU and then as we try and negotiate trade deals with the rest of the global markets. It has been suggested that trade deals won't be agreed until our deal with the EU is sorted as other exporters will be waiting to see what sort of access we have with the EU market.

 

[LamieRobertson]

The day is getting ever closer....thank goodness

 

[portslade seagull]

Posted on another thread, but relevant here too.

The Sunday Times has today called for a tactical Leave vote to allow Cameron to renegotiate the terms of our membership with the EU, suggesting an emergency brake on immigration is reasonable.

On Thursday, therefore, we should vote “leave”. Y.[/QUOTE

Seriously, if you think we can vote 'leave' then go back and renegociate our terms and remain, you are going to have a nasty surprise. If the outcome is leave, how well do you think if will go down if Cameron says 'NO! I am going back to Brussels to negociate a New Deal. Wish me well'. He would be thrown in the sea. If you vote leave and this is the outcome, we will leave.

Why would he the EU need us more than you pessimistic lot believe

 

[BadFish]

That is very amusing. I confess that recently I haven't paid much attention to either official campaign as they both seem to be caricuratures of dumbed down debate. That one wins the competition for irrelevant propaganda ! If the Referundum were to be decided on the official campaigns I would abstain. They just haven't been debating the issues that are important to me but having made my own mind up I will vote Leave despite the campaign not because of it. With reference to our discussion I want to feel that if a progressive Government is the will of the people it will not be stopped by the free marketer bankers of the EU.

i would agree regarding both campaigns, it is further proof that politics is a basket case. Fair play to you, i decided not to vote so i haven't looked into it with any kind of depth. My gut says stay but i am very swayed by your argument and if there was any indication that the electorate would welcome progressive government i would be all for it. Sadly for me it is a case of 'better the devil you know' which itself isn't very progressive.

Anyway nice talking to you, I will continue to watch with interest.

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

Surely the European Court of Justice merely ensures that EU laws are applied equally across all member states. You make it sound like they are challenging every single law.we pass. Yes, the judges are unelected, but then so are the judges in this country that apply the laws of the land to their decisions.

As for you last comment, how do you extrapolate from the comment 'I don't think that leaving is going to see a massive reduction in potholes in the UK as the leave campaign suggest' into 'I agree with your last point that the vote will not radically alter our lives either way'?

If we leave, we are likely to face many years of uncertainty, firstly as we negotiate our 'divorce' from the EU and then as we try and negotiate trade deals with the rest of the global markets. It has been suggested that trade deals won't be agreed until our deal with the EU is sorted as other exporters will be waiting to see what sort of access we have with the EU market.

I suppose I just don't care about potholes that much. I wont be cowed by your trade deal scare stories anymore than I will be cowed by the immigration scare stories of the other side. Trade deals are mutually beneficial agreements and our trading partners need these with us as much as we need them with them. Regardless of the vote I don't expect life to change too much in the short term.
I didn't mean to imply that the European Court challenges every piece of UK legislation. However as you rightly point out they do ensure uniform compliance to EU rules which means free markets in labour and capital. I used as an example the fact that the railways can never be re-nationalised. I am sorry but if I vote for a party on a platform of re-nationalisation then I expect it to happen.

 

[Tesco in Disguise]

Comment article from the Telegraph.

A couple of weeks ago, I was at the hairdresser, head under the mixer tap, with several women using the basins either side of me. On the wall in front of us was a TV screen. The volume was muted, but we could read the headlines scrolling along the bottom.

I forget which particular warning from Project Fear was making news that day – Third World War, feta cheese shortage, pensioners to lose the right to watch Countdown… they all blur into one, don’t they?

Suddenly, the woman at the far end burst out laughing. The laughter was contagious. Soon, all five of us were cracking up. “Does anyone believe this stuff?” asked one of the salon’s mystified juniors. “No!” we snorted.

If the Remain campaign could have heard that laughter, they should have been afraid. Very afraid. Ridicule is dangerous stuff. Cynicism you can talk round, anger defuse. But mockery is something else. Mockery is like mercury. Once it’s out the bottle, there’s no getting it back in again.

Of course, five women with a fit of the giggles do not a focus group make, and yet that was the first time I truly believed that Britain might vote to leave the European Union. That hunch seems to have been correct. The latest YouGov poll gives Brexit a seven-point lead with women now more likely to support Leave (as are people aged 25 to 49). Guess what – women don’t like condescending, mainly male politicians lecturing them. Who knew?

There is panic in the Remain camp, and rightly so. Each new tactic comes across as an increasingly desperate Mr Punch beating up Judy and squawking, “Oh, yes, you will!”

“Oh, no, we won’t!,” the people shout back.

The female vote will be absolutely crucial on June 23rd. Judging by the vast daily postbag to this newspaper, women have overcome their instinctive caution and see the EU not as a source of stability but as a beast that devours its own children – and ours could be among them if we’re not careful.

Look how Brussels and Berlin are utterly indifferent as the young people of Spain, Greece and Italy are sacrificed on the Euro bonfire.

Notice how no one on the Remain side even bothers to pretend that Brussels is anything other than hideously dysfunctional. With its nepotism, protectionism, centralism, cronyism and sexism (not one of the seven Presidents is female), the EU has got more rotten ‘isms’ than a medieval Papacy.

How can that corrupt bunch of old freeloaders be the future when they are so clearly the discredited past?

But, hark! To win women voters back to Remain, here comes Samantha Cameron in “her first-ever newspaper article”. SamCam says she knows that people will think she has “a vested interest” in expressing her views. “They’re right,” says the PM’s wife, “I have got a vested interest: my children and their future.”

Mrs Cameron goes on to tell us how easy her posh leather goods company finds it to trade with the EU in contrast to the “expensive, bureaucratic nightmare” that is the rest of the world.

Funny, when I spoke last week to Sir James Dyson, our greatest living inventor and billionaire exporter, he had nothing but praise for the “expanding and exciting” global markets, compared to the shrinking EU whose politicised courts dispense not justice but shameless patronage to big manufacturers in Germany, France and Italy.

In a long article, SamCam finds space to warn about “the prospect of another recession”, but there isn’t a single sentence about the problems created for millions of British families by uncontrolled EU migration. Not for heiress Mrs Cameron the worry of getting her kids a place at a decent school or a foot on the housing ladder. Her attempts to identify as ordinary are painful. “I look at my daughter Nancy,” she says, “and think that in only six years she could be starting an apprenticeship.”

Eh? Nancy Cameron – an apprenticeship? What will that be in, then, sweetie? Welding?

Oh, puhleese. It’s patronising, Marie Antoinette-stuff like that which is inciting Britons to rebel. I don’t mean to be ungenerous, but if Samantha Cameron wrote that article herself then I am Jane Austen.

How typical of the Remain campaign that their appeal to female voters should be drafted by some special adviser who has even less clue about normal women’s lives than Mrs Cameron.

Samantha Cameron says she doesn’t want to take a “gamble” with her children’s future by leaving the EU. But women know the future of her children will always be safe because immense wealth and privilege will make sure of that. The kids we should be worrying about are those who will have to compete for jobs and collapsing public services if immigration continue at the rate of 240,000 every single year.

Just imagine the strain that will put on our schools, our housing, our hospitals and our environment in 10 years’ time. Only by leaving the EU can we guarantee a decent quality of life for children whose daddy isn’t the Prime Minister.

This week, the Archbishop of Canterbury told us that he was voting Remain, signalling that this was somehow the moral choice. Personally, I think a more Christian view comes from the former chief rabbi Jonathan Sacks. Dr Sacks has warned that, while a well-integrated, multi-ethnic society feels like a home, a multicultural society overwhelmed by immigration feels like a hotel where “everyone is a guest”.

What do we want for our children? A home or a hotel?

Next Thursday, we get to choose.




Wherever I drive now, all I see is Leave posters. I know of very few people who intend to vote remain. I am finally believing that Brexit can actually pull this off. Remain are running scared, as although people realise that there will be an economic impact, a lot don't care and don't believe the Remain camp lies.

I'm sure a bunch of cackling crones at the hairdresser's know more about the likely economic fallout than apolitical economic experts. So, good to have their input.

Sent from my E5823 using Tapatalk

 

[GT49er]

Seriously, if you think we can vote 'leave' then go back and renegociate our terms and remain, you are going to have a nasty surprise. If the outcome is leave, how well do you think if will go down if Cameron says 'NO! I am going back to Brussels to negociate a New Deal. Wish me well'. He would be thrown in the sea. If you vote leave and this is the outcome, we will leave.

Seriously, do you really believe that if we vote leave, there won't be a second referendum within months, probably after a snap general election (won by the tories, as Corbyn is unelectable)? Of course there will be one - the establishment isn't going to let the great unwashed spoil their fun just like that.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

can you take a photo of the leaflet before your bins get collected and post it.
would love to see which group have published this and are saying Syria and Iraq are set to join the EU

See below

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

i would agree regarding both campaigns, it is further proof that politics is a basket case. Fair play to you, i decided not to vote so i haven't looked into it with any kind of depth. My gut says stay but i am very swayed by your argument and if there was any indication that the electorate would welcome progressive government i would be all for it. Sadly for me it is a case of 'better the devil you know' which itself isn't very progressive.

Anyway nice talking to you, I will continue to watch with interest.

Likewise, I tend to duck in and out of these threads looking for decent debate and then head out when the abuse starts flying around. Once the new season begins we can all return to chatting about the Albion !

 

[GT49er]

I'm sure a bunch of cackling crones at the hairdresser's know more about the likely economic fallout than apolitical economic experts. So, good to have their input.

Strangely, this is exactly the view of common people we would expect from the Westminster Village. If we do vote Brexit, it will be precisely this attitude, to quote the S*n, 'wot won it'.

 

[portslade seagull]

See below

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Where does it say that I can see the numbered countries and they are just highlighted in a different colour

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Seriously, do you really believe that if we vote leave, there won't be a second referendum within months, probably after a snap general election (won by the tories, as Corbyn is unelectable)? Of course there will be one - the establishment isn't going to let the great unwashed spoil their fun just like that.

Yes, absolutely seriously. It would be unconstitutional for Cameron to renage. It would be on a par with refusing to accept the result of a general election. It would be treasonous. I am serious. One of my mates at work has told me he's voting out, even though he supports our EU membership, because it will simply force the rest of the buggers to give us a better deal. Some weeks ago I posted something about this. It is on a par with the notion of petitioning your miissus for divorce and going to court, with the plan being that just before the decree nisi is granted she will offer to improve her cooking and give you more regular BJs. Seriously!!!

 

[BadFish]

probably been posted already but some excellent points are made on both side here, especially by Dan Hannan.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2MCBFU1tW-Y

 

[BadFish]

Where does it say that I can see the numbered countries and they are just highlighted in a different colour

Its a very clever piece of propaganda. Never actually go so far as to say it.

 

[Bakero]

See below

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I think they are highlighting the fact that Turkey borders Iraq and Syria rather than suggesting that they are set to join the EU.

Of course it's nonsense to suggest that Turkey is set to join anyway. Adding Iraq and Syria to the picture increases the fear.

 

[Steve.S]

See below

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Doesn't say they are set to join does it.